23: Exploring Cannabis Science: Unveiling Truths and Myths with Jason Wilson, MS

Raven: 00:00:13

Hey everyone.

Raven: 00:00:14

Raven here with another episode of Plants Saved My Life.

Raven: 00:00:17

This week we are joined by Jason Wilson, who thrives at the

Raven: 00:00:22

philosophy, and education with a passion for quality and a dedication

Raven: 00:00:28

Jason is a science educator and natural products researcher specializing in

Raven: 00:00:35

He's both the CEO and the principal scientist for natural learning

Raven: 00:00:41

behind the immensely popular Curious about cannabis podcast, educational

Raven: 00:00:47

He also recently authored a new mycology-based children's book

Raven: 00:00:53

Jason serves as a scientific advisor to a variety of cannabis companies and

Raven: 00:00:59

and regularly provides trainings, lectures, seminars, classes, and

Raven: 00:01:06

science topics for diverse audiences including cannabis industry workers,

Raven: 00:01:11

researchers, regulators, healthcare professionals, and the general public.

Raven: 00:01:16

So Jason is an educational powerhouse in the cannabis science space and I'm

Raven: 00:01:27

Awesome.

Raven: 00:01:27

Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Jason.

Raven: 00:01:30

I know that you are an educator, you're the founder of Natural Learning

Raven: 00:01:35

of Curious about Cannabis and then also your new book, toad Stool , Treasures.

Raven: 00:01:38

And I would love to know more about yourself and how

Jason: 00:01:43

Oh boy.

Jason: 00:01:43

yeah, I've had a very, what I often tell people is a, a

Jason: 00:01:47

non-linear and non-traditional path to the work that I do now.

Jason: 00:01:52

So all of the things that I do revolve around my core interests and passions

Jason: 00:02:03

you know, those three things really permeate through

Jason: 00:02:08

And, how I got to where I am now, kind of goes back to, kind of an old, the

Jason: 00:02:16

when I was a junior in high school, I was in a, a communications class

Jason: 00:02:22

And the center, topic of the last debate was, should cannabis be legalized or not?

Jason: 00:02:29

And, that debate is what sort of sent me.

Jason: 00:02:34

On a journey to like really seriously think about the science behind drugs as

Jason: 00:02:43

connects to policy, and research and where that, that could all be heading.

Jason: 00:02:48

But then even before that, I had an interest in, how plants affect the

Jason: 00:02:54

Going back even further because, I grew up, it's kind of funny, I tell

Jason: 00:03:00

my background, I grew up as a, an adopted neurodivergent only child

Jason: 00:03:05

to a Southern Baptist preacher and first grade teacher in the deep South.

Jason: 00:03:09

So within that sentence, there's, there's quite a lot.

Raven: 00:03:14

Lot to unpack there for sure.

Jason: 00:03:16

Yeah.

Jason: 00:03:17

My, my dad was, and still does, has severe P T S D and, and several

Jason: 00:03:22

other mental health conditions that he wrestles with regularly.

Jason: 00:03:26

And I grew up seeing that and around the age of 11 or so, I started to 12

Jason: 00:03:33

whenever we first got the internet, and I think I was in third grade.

Jason: 00:03:38

It wasn't long before I started trying to search for things related

Jason: 00:03:43

help my dad, and that led to me finding maps, the multi, disciplinary

Jason: 00:03:50

I ended up, and keep in mind I was like 12, 13 at this time.

Jason: 00:03:53

I, started emailing researchers that were teaching about psychedelics in

Jason: 00:03:59

PTSD trying to see like, Hey, is there any way to get my dad involved in, a

Jason: 00:04:07

And, so I was doing a lot of reading and trying to understand the

Jason: 00:04:12

and psychedelics at a very young age, kind of an unnaturally young age.

Jason: 00:04:17

And then that debate in high school is sort of where things clicked.

Jason: 00:04:22

And I was like, I'm gonna start taking this more seriously, you

Jason: 00:04:25

know, thinking like long-term of what my goals are, professionally.

Jason: 00:04:29

Then in college I went to the University of Mississippi and had a kinda

Jason: 00:04:37

became friends with some scientists at the natural products research lab there.

Jason: 00:04:43

They introduced me to the researchers at the Coy Waller Complex,

Jason: 00:04:46

which is where the NIDA Cannabis Research and Development Lab is.

Jason: 00:04:50

And I ended up, getting to know those researchers and

Jason: 00:04:56

And at the same time I was working for the IT department for the school.

Jason: 00:04:59

So there was this interesting thing where the researchers there umla

Jason: 00:05:04

at the Ole Miss Lab, they would start calling me to come work on

Jason: 00:05:10

You know?

Jason: 00:05:10

So it was like an easy like call the IT guy we know.

Jason: 00:05:13

And so I ended up spending quite a bit of time working on gas chromatographs

Jason: 00:05:20

And one thing that's nice about being an IT technician is to spend a lot of time

Jason: 00:05:27

And in that time of waiting, I got to basically do my first podcast

Jason: 00:05:32

and talk to these researchers and just ask them questions, try to understand

Jason: 00:05:37

how they got into the field and that, you know, really stirred some things.

Jason: 00:05:41

You could see the snowball kind of growing.

Jason: 00:05:44

And then my connection with the natural products lab, he said,

Jason: 00:05:46

Hey, you need to take natural products research more seriously.

Jason: 00:05:50

You have a mind for it, you're obviously interested in it.

Jason: 00:05:53

You need to find a way to carve a path there.

Jason: 00:05:56

And at this point I was a philosophy and psychology major preparing for law school.

Jason: 00:06:02

I wanted to go into constitutional law, because I was into cannabis

Jason: 00:06:09

And, that was just off the heels of.

Jason: 00:06:11

Dropping out of wanting to go to med school and realizing that like med school

Jason: 00:06:16

and if I became a doctor, I wouldn't quite get to do what I wanted to do.

Jason: 00:06:19

So I was a mess, like trying to figure out where I wanted to go, what I wanted to do.

Jason: 00:06:23

And luckily I had this, you know, friend who really became a mentor that

Jason: 00:06:27

worked with the U S D A there, and he's like, look, this is your passion.

Jason: 00:06:30

Obviously you need to think about this and figure out how

Jason: 00:06:35

So without a science degree, you know, I graduated with a philosophy

Jason: 00:06:40

degree in a psychology minor, just shy of a psychology degree.

Jason: 00:06:44

I started emailing professors in the biology and chemistry department

Jason: 00:06:47

saying, Hey, I don't know if you remember me, blah, blah, blah.

Jason: 00:06:49

I would love to take your graduate level class.

Jason: 00:06:51

I would love to take this class.

Jason: 00:06:53

I don't have the prerequisites, but I assure you if you

Jason: 00:06:58

And surprisingly, 90% of professors I emailed let me do it and they, they

Jason: 00:07:06

and I, over two years, just took upper level biology, chemistry, you

Jason: 00:07:13

Tried to put together a, a, basically a biology degree.

Jason: 00:07:16

And then from there I was able to get into a master's program in Oregon

Jason: 00:07:23

It was a split kind of master's biology, master's of teaching combined.

Jason: 00:07:28

And then from there I was able to get my first job as a botanist, with the Bureau

Jason: 00:07:35

And then from there was able to jump into a natural products lab as a founding

Jason: 00:07:41

Research, in southern Oregon, which was one of the first accredited cannabis

Jason: 00:07:48

Really.

Jason: 00:07:49

So it's just kind of this weird series of connections.

Jason: 00:07:52

You know, it wasn't a direct path, I wasn't a biology major that then, you

Jason: 00:07:56

know, went on to study biochemistry or something and then got into research.

Jason: 00:08:02

it's really been a very non-linear, path That's just been me searching for

Jason: 00:08:09

the things that I'm passionate about and, you know, and then jump forward

Raven: 00:08:17

Wow.

Raven: 00:08:17

Yeah.

Raven: 00:08:18

That's first off.

Raven: 00:08:19

Thank you for sharing.

Raven: 00:08:19

that's incredibly powerful.

Raven: 00:08:21

I think that that resonates with a lot of people who might find themselves

Raven: 00:08:26

that they're incredibly interested, but not necessarily being in the spot

Raven: 00:08:30

So being able to navigate their own lifetime and us, I find that whenever

Raven: 00:08:37

products, if you're into this kind of, And into this sort of plant medicine

Raven: 00:08:43

I feel like a lot of us didn't have a choice in the matter.

Raven: 00:08:45

, like as you describe your background, it sounds like although there's a

Raven: 00:08:50

places, all those pieces in place, it wouldn't have happened unless

Jason: 00:08:55

Oh yeah, yeah,

Raven: 00:08:56

yeah.

Raven: 00:08:56

And I think being born in this generation that we're in that linear path to research

Raven: 00:09:01

cannabis, to research plant medicines or entheogens hasn't been linear there.

Raven: 00:09:05

Ha.

Raven: 00:09:05

That hasn't been there.

Raven: 00:09:06

in the past, of course.

Raven: 00:09:07

I mean, we can look to the fifties, sixties, seventies and how they handled

Raven: 00:09:12

is coming out of Ole Miss and then coming out of Israel with cannabis.

Raven: 00:09:15

But only now are we actually getting to the point of where that is an

Raven: 00:09:21

And , you can actually make sense of it.

Raven: 00:09:22

So I applaud you for being able to go with this sort of non-traditional

Raven: 00:09:29

back to your childhood and then going into high school debate team.

Raven: 00:09:34

Arguing the same principles that you stand by today, would you have ever thought?

Jason: 00:09:37

Oh no.

Jason: 00:09:37

I mean, well it's kinda weird in a way.

Jason: 00:09:40

Yes.

Jason: 00:09:40

Because,

Raven: 00:09:41

right, yeah.

Jason: 00:09:41

When I was like 13 to 16 or something, I remember people asking

Jason: 00:09:47

you, after you go to college or whatever, and I was like, I'm gonna

Jason: 00:09:51

Cuz I was, I was already, I could already see the potential of it.

Jason: 00:09:54

And this was before, like, this is before people even knew what C B D was really.

Jason: 00:09:58

and before, like some of the psychedelics research that was going

Jason: 00:10:03

isomers of L S D to try to, reduce hallucinations and things like that,

Jason: 00:10:09

and so I could see the, the frontier there, how much

Jason: 00:10:15

and so in one sense, like.

Jason: 00:10:16

There was a part of me that's that once it clicked, I was like,

Jason: 00:10:20

But then if you were to ask me at multiple points along the journey, do

Jason: 00:10:26

there were many, many times, and still even right now where I have a lot

Jason: 00:10:33

you know, that I wrestle with, where I'm like, okay, what comes next?

Jason: 00:10:36

How do we get to the next step?

Jason: 00:10:38

And something that's helped.

Jason: 00:10:40

One reason why I like to talk about my story is I hope it will make

Jason: 00:10:44

people feel, more, empowered to take more control over their journey.

Jason: 00:10:51

Whatever it is, you know, that there are many ways to get to the same end point.

Jason: 00:10:56

And for me, I.

Jason: 00:10:58

Studying philosophy was critical for who I am now studying

Jason: 00:11:03

So if I had gone the kind of standard route of biology degree, do research, do

Jason: 00:11:10

want to do a PhD, eventually if I had done that direct route, I, I would've missed

Jason: 00:11:16

a lot of things that have influenced how I think and, how I approach the world.

Jason: 00:11:21

and, and it actually ties into natural learning enterprises cuz the reason I

Jason: 00:11:26

is because I feel like philosophy and education particularly are

Jason: 00:11:31

very, misunderstood and undervalued, underrepresented in, a lot of sciences.

Jason: 00:11:38

education is kind of more thought of as like a regurgitation of trivial facts

Jason: 00:11:45

to ethics, but like that's kind of it and is often not taken very seriously.

Jason: 00:11:50

And so, My hope in some of the work I'm doing now or trying to

Jason: 00:11:55

integrate philosophy with, scientific explorations and research and education?

Jason: 00:12:01

How do we come up with better ways to teach about these things and encourage

Jason: 00:12:07

and that all stems from that exper those experiences.

Jason: 00:12:10

I've had to see that there are some major gaps here that if we can address

Jason: 00:12:17

of civilization better because we're gonna have a more empowered, mindful

Jason: 00:12:24

world in a way that is more in line with their actual, self-interest rather than

Jason: 00:12:31

because they don't quite have a good understanding of basic scientific

Jason: 00:12:37

to critically evaluate their ideas and beliefs about, scientific concepts.

Jason: 00:12:41

And so that's it all.

Jason: 00:12:43

It all definitely connects and I'm very grateful for the

Raven: 00:12:49

Yeah, that's, really well said.

Raven: 00:12:51

I think you're right in that studying philosophy sort of informed

Raven: 00:12:54

you being able to make rational questions in regards to science.

Raven: 00:12:56

And I think that that's something as scientists and as people in the field

Raven: 00:13:02

science, we need to make sure that , we have that relationship with philosophy.

Raven: 00:13:05

Cause I think that we do have a certain disconnect.

Raven: 00:13:06

Like you said, it's mostly relegated to ethics.

Raven: 00:13:08

Yeah.

Raven: 00:13:09

And that's not encompassing the whole totality of what philosophy is, right?

Jason: 00:13:13

Yeah, absolutely.

Raven: 00:13:14

so I would love to know with what you've learned and what you've experienced

Raven: 00:13:19

key messages that you would like to take home with the work that you're doing?

Jason: 00:13:25

Oh yeah,

Raven: 00:13:26

that's a big one.

Jason: 00:13:27

it is, it is a really big one.

Jason: 00:13:31

You know, I think some of the things I try to always impress on folks

Jason: 00:13:38

context it is, is one, oftentimes science is more about figuring out.

Jason: 00:13:44

Better questions to ask than it is finding concrete answers to questions

Jason: 00:13:51

Yes.

Jason: 00:13:52

and that is a very big, concept that I, I really want people to internalize

Jason: 00:14:02

better questions and then how do we evaluate our experiences and our beliefs

Jason: 00:14:12

can formulate some sort of, position on that question one way or another.

Jason: 00:14:16

And that sounds really simple, but it's a really delicate process that, you know,

Jason: 00:14:22

as we grow in school, like as kids, we're not really taught how to think, how to.

Jason: 00:14:29

critically evaluate things.

Jason: 00:14:31

And when we are, and this is something that has really bugged me as I'm

Jason: 00:14:35

was a quote unquote gifted child, which now we understand like that's

Jason: 00:14:39

a lot of neurodivergent kids that get, you know, labeled as gifted.

Jason: 00:14:43

And there's a lot of complex issues around all of that.

Jason: 00:14:48

But, it was only in these like gifted classes that I was introduced to

Jason: 00:14:55

think outside of like the scientific method in sixth grade science class.

Jason: 00:15:00

And that is absurd.

Jason: 00:15:02

Like what in the world, like why, is that not just a normal part of the

Jason: 00:15:09

so, you know, the big takeaways that's, that's, you know, on a high level what

Jason: 00:15:13

I want people to be thinking about is, how are you interacting with information?

Jason: 00:15:17

How do you evaluate your beliefs about information that you're taking in?

Jason: 00:15:21

And how are you, Connected to the natural world.

Jason: 00:15:24

something that I try to encourage both in curious about cannabis as well as some of

Jason: 00:15:30

garden Wild, and some of the other things I work on is, you know, thinking about

Jason: 00:15:37

else around us, and our impacts, both on the environment as well as, you

Jason: 00:15:43

How, people even talk about nature and the environment and how that

Jason: 00:15:51

so for instance, garden Wild is a project that is a kind of a

Jason: 00:15:55

really, lightweight one that I've been working on for several years.

Jason: 00:15:58

It's all about getting people to think about how their gardening and landscaping

Jason: 00:16:06

just thinking about, you know, ways to, be better neighbors to our, our wild

Jason: 00:16:13

And in doing so, they learn about.

Jason: 00:16:15

How these different organisms affect ecosystems and that kind

Jason: 00:16:20

them thinking about systems and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Jason: 00:16:23

so thinking about our place in nature, how we're connected with cannabis,

Jason: 00:16:29

excited about cannabis as a medicine and all its potential, but we also have to

Jason: 00:16:34

how is our interaction with cannabis affecting other people,

Jason: 00:16:40

so those kinds of discussions I think are some of the most important because

Jason: 00:16:47

sort of these, these core principles that can then, trickle out into all

Jason: 00:16:55

when it comes to natural medicine and plants, one of the things that I like

Jason: 00:17:00

to try to communicate is one, most of our pharmaceuticals are still based in.

Jason: 00:17:06

Natural products.

Jason: 00:17:07

So, literally a lot of pharmaceuticals are still extracted and processed from

Jason: 00:17:12

plants, from, from nature, and I think a lot of people forget about that.

Jason: 00:17:16

So, there's a huge place for unquote natural medicine, medicinal plants and

Jason: 00:17:23

the United States in particular has kind of screwed up how we handle those things.

Jason: 00:17:28

Other countries have better systems for how you would get medicinal

Jason: 00:17:31

plants approved, as, you know, as formal medicines and things like that.

Jason: 00:17:36

the United States is definitely behind on that, but there are,

Jason: 00:17:41

And so in terms of activism and things, I'd love to, for people

Jason: 00:17:46

have pharmaceuticals, you can also have medical foods, you can have

Jason: 00:17:51

You can have all of it.

Jason: 00:17:53

it doesn't have to be one versus the other.

Jason: 00:17:56

They're all tools.

Jason: 00:17:57

in the toolbox, medicinal plants, each one is, is a tool and it's up

Jason: 00:18:03

to utilize that tool to get the most benefit and minimize any harms.

Jason: 00:18:07

but I, I discouraged this sort of sense of like big pharma versus natural products.

Jason: 00:18:11

Like even though that is real, like it exists, there is a future we can

Jason: 00:18:18

all and it's all just treated as suitable tools for suitable purpose.

Jason: 00:18:23

and, and that's where I wanna see us get to.

Raven: 00:18:26

Yeah, I agree with that wholeheartedly.

Raven: 00:18:28

There is a huge discourse where it's like big pharma versus medicinal plants

Raven: 00:18:33

, in the future, there's a way for both those things to exist where it's not.

Raven: 00:18:37

Where it's not exclusive, you know, like we're able to exist with both of

Raven: 00:18:42

modalities as far as like evolutions and innovations in mental health or, yep.

Raven: 00:18:46

I don't, I don't know.

Raven: 00:18:47

Maybe even sound healing or sensory deprivation or something.

Raven: 00:18:49

Absolutely.

Raven: 00:18:50

Yeah.

Raven: 00:18:50

We might have, we might have a lot more innovations in those things.

Raven: 00:18:52

And like you said, it doesn't necessarily need to be so black and white.

Raven: 00:18:55

unfortunately it is right now in our current, yes, state of America, it

Raven: 00:19:01

have a lot of big, a lot of big actors on the big pharma side doing Yep.

Raven: 00:19:06

Very bad things.

Raven: 00:19:07

And then, I mean, the same goes for the holistic side too.

Raven: 00:19:09

There's definitely bad actors on that end as well.

Raven: 00:19:11

Yeah.

Jason: 00:19:12

It's human nature, you know, like the, the worst of us shows up in every

Raven: 00:19:20

It is.

Raven: 00:19:21

And I, I think you're right.

Raven: 00:19:22

In order to, in order to kind of shift our perspective in order to, it's

Raven: 00:19:27

change, a little process to actually shift our perspective and really think

Raven: 00:19:33

one thing that I think a lot about in our terms of our relationship

Raven: 00:19:36

with nature is something I learned recently on one of these podcasts.

Raven: 00:19:39

I was talking to a, like a world traveler shaman medicine man.

Raven: 00:19:42

He relayed a message from the Lakota tribe and he mentioned that they have a

Raven: 00:19:49

So we kind of asked them what the core of life is all about.

Raven: 00:19:51

and he explained it to me as it's about being a good relative, but mm-hmm.

Raven: 00:19:56

It's not about being a good relative necessarily to your

Raven: 00:19:59

It's also inheriting.

Raven: 00:20:01

You have to recognize in their context that their relative is

Raven: 00:20:04

the, the sea, the relative is the rivers and the wind and the trees.

Raven: 00:20:07

And to be a good relative to the earth and to really see the mother earth as your

Raven: 00:20:13

And I think that we'll get there.

Raven: 00:20:14

Natural medicines definitely help.

Raven: 00:20:16

And I think that, like you said, with most of our pharmaceutical

Raven: 00:20:19

tool belt being based in plants as it is, we're already halfway there.

Jason: 00:20:24

Yeah.

Jason: 00:20:25

And there's a pendulum swing right now, away from.

Jason: 00:20:29

Single ingredient pharmaceuticals, polypharmacy.

Jason: 00:20:32

Yeah.

Jason: 00:20:32

Is, is, you know, becoming more and more, of a focus of pharmaceutical companies

Jason: 00:20:40

that, you know, it's not, the locking key model for pharmacology is not accurate.

Jason: 00:20:44

the way that signaling works in the body is very complex and

Jason: 00:20:47

interconnected, and that all pushes us towards, medicinal plants.

Jason: 00:20:53

and so I'm, I have a lot of optimism for the future.

Jason: 00:20:57

I think it's gonna be a bumpy ride, you know, I'm sure some listeners out there

Jason: 00:21:01

Terrence McKenna had something he said one time that really resonated with me,

Jason: 00:21:05

get to where we need to be, we're gonna have to go through some birthing pains

Jason: 00:21:13

But it's necessary in order to get, you know, to this, you know,

Jason: 00:21:17

sort of next stage that we really need to get to as a civilization.

Jason: 00:21:22

And I really agree with that.

Jason: 00:21:23

It's, it's hard and messy complicated.

Jason: 00:21:27

things might get worse before they get better in some respects,

Jason: 00:21:31

And, but I do think like all of that messiness is probably, just

Jason: 00:21:36

necessary in order to, cause the kind of changes of thinking and shifts.

Jason: 00:21:41

you know, it, it does kind of have to be bumpy and disruptive in order to,

Jason: 00:21:46

Yeah.

Jason: 00:21:46

so yeah, really good point.

Jason: 00:21:49

I'd love to know what kind of your vision of being able to standardize

Jason: 00:21:54

the realm of medicinal plants, medicinal plant extracts, looks like.

Jason: 00:21:58

Yeah, so it's a delicate thing obviously.

Jason: 00:22:00

So one thing that I am heavily involved in is, quality management

Jason: 00:22:05

in labs that work with natural, natural products of different kinds.

Jason: 00:22:08

So the idea of standardization is something I think about a lot, I'll say,

Jason: 00:22:12

especially cuz we look at other countries like Thailand, Malaysia, China, that

Jason: 00:22:17

processes, formal processes for bringing a medicinal plant into the market.

Jason: 00:22:21

Yeah, it's, it's really, you know, it hinges on how you define your terms.

Jason: 00:22:26

So, you know, the first thing, let's pick cannabis for instance.

Jason: 00:22:31

easy thing to, to work with.

Jason: 00:22:33

Let's say we wanna have standardized cannabis extracts that are available,

Jason: 00:22:38

you know, essentially as a prescription legally in the United States.

Jason: 00:22:41

You know, first you have to say like, what are we standardizing?

Jason: 00:22:45

And generally that would be.

Jason: 00:22:47

You'd start off saying, okay, T H C C B D, we need to standardize those things.

Jason: 00:22:52

So those are the things we're measuring, making sure that they're coming out, you

Jason: 00:22:55

know, the same values every time, but there are broader ways to think about it.

Jason: 00:22:59

you could standardize to a chemical class and just say, okay, we're

Jason: 00:23:05

T H C C B D ratio, which then gives you more wiggle room and allowance for

Jason: 00:23:12

you can also then extend that and say, we're standardizing to cannabinoids with

Jason: 00:23:20

And then we also are standardizing to a minimum total terpene concentration of

Jason: 00:23:29

to see at least five dominant terpenes be X, Y, Z, et cetera, et cetera.

Jason: 00:23:33

So, you know, there's, there's all sorts of different ways you can define

Jason: 00:23:38

Will then affect what you're able to do to produce it and what you're gonna

Jason: 00:23:45

Now in the United States, the f D A requires such granular definitions

Jason: 00:23:55

as it does as a single, you know, largely single ingredient, medicine.

Jason: 00:23:59

It's just C B D, it's not a, you know, a C B D rich plant extract.

Jason: 00:24:04

Whereas if you go to Canada, you go to Spain, you go to all these other

Jason: 00:24:09

legal, which is another pharmaceutical cannabis product by the same company.

Jason: 00:24:14

And Jazz pharmaceuticals used to be GW Pharmaceuticals.

Jason: 00:24:17

sativex is a botanical extract that is standardized to a

Jason: 00:24:23

They also have some definitions of terpenes they expect to be

Jason: 00:24:27

So you see these two, sort of polar opposite ways of handling things.

Jason: 00:24:30

Then the US they have to go.

Jason: 00:24:32

Know, highly, highly single ingredients C b D standardized so that they can

Jason: 00:24:39

exact same every time with very, very little allowance for variation.

Jason: 00:24:44

Whereas in other countries, there is some allowance for natural variation.

Jason: 00:24:48

Like, yes, there are chemicals in sativex that we don't really know what they are.

Jason: 00:24:52

Like we could, you know, really dive in and try to get granular and

Jason: 00:24:56

identify every single, you know, all 500 plus compounds that are in there.

Jason: 00:25:00

But really the ones that are driving most of the effects we care about are

Jason: 00:25:06

And so we focus on those, we allow the natural variation.

Jason: 00:25:10

and that's, that's where the US needs to get to.

Jason: 00:25:11

It's ridiculous that side OFX is not in the United States.

Jason: 00:25:15

it, it's crazy.

Jason: 00:25:16

So it's important, particularly for people that live in the United

Jason: 00:25:22

countries, these models exist and that there are pharmaceutical level.

Jason: 00:25:27

Products made from medicinal plants that do exist in other countries.

Jason: 00:25:31

so like there are ways to do this.

Jason: 00:25:33

obviously there are concerns about costs, and a number of other things like once you

Jason: 00:25:39

plant products on the market, are they inaccessible because they're so expensive?

Jason: 00:25:43

How does insurance play in, and that's a whole other, you know, ballgame.

Raven: 00:25:47

what do you think is the holdup on getting something like

Jason: 00:25:52

Think it's just primarily the, the fact that it does have, constituents

Jason: 00:26:01

That's the I see.

Jason: 00:26:01

Yeah.

Jason: 00:26:02

That's really the main thing, is the way the FDA approves what are called, so how

Jason: 00:26:10

You put together what's called a drug master file.

Jason: 00:26:12

And this drug master file contains like all of the information about this product

Jason: 00:26:20

Includes information about any preclinical work that's been done, safety data,

Jason: 00:26:28

And you submit that to the F D A and it has to be reviewed.

Jason: 00:26:31

You know, they review all of the supporting records and everything.

Jason: 00:26:34

And all of that is, like I said, so granular in detail.

Jason: 00:26:37

The things they wanna see monitored and tracked.

Jason: 00:26:40

They, they really don't want to, they don't want unknowns.

Jason: 00:26:43

And with medicinal plants, you always have unknowns.

Jason: 00:26:46

And, so that's really the hurdle is that this is being done in the name of safety,

Jason: 00:26:53

that we don't want unknown things going on to the market cause it might be unsafe.

Jason: 00:26:57

However, that's not being balanced with the recognized safety profiles of the.

Jason: 00:27:03

Sources of, of these extracts, you know, like cannabis for instance, you know, we

Jason: 00:27:10

So the idea that we can't allow some extract to be approved by the

Jason: 00:27:16

F D A as a pharmaceutical because it's got unknown constituents in it.

Jason: 00:27:19

It's like, well if, if you're managing the process and you can verify that

Jason: 00:27:26

nothing's being introduced that wasn't in the plant, you know, et cetera,

Jason: 00:27:31

the safety profile's already been proven, well enough that we know

Jason: 00:27:34

it's not something to be, you, to have like a gatekeeper, effect on.

Jason: 00:27:38

Same with a lot of other, other plant extracts too.

Jason: 00:27:41

You know, we have tons of historical information about how these products,

Jason: 00:27:47

both in the raw forms and their extracted forms have been used.

Jason: 00:27:51

And, so there's just a disconnect there.

Jason: 00:27:53

and it's.

Jason: 00:27:54

The FDA just keeps saying it's all about safety.

Jason: 00:27:57

but most of us that work in the space recognize that it, it's really more

Jason: 00:28:04

The system has been established in such a way that there are a lot of

Jason: 00:28:08

the way it is, and, more or less that's what's really going on.

Jason: 00:28:12

And it's just gonna take a long time and it's gonna take people,

Jason: 00:28:18

agencies and stuff before we're gonna start to see movement on that.

Jason: 00:28:21

I believe.

Jason: 00:28:21

I think that's one reason why we haven't seen much movement in the hemp space.

Jason: 00:28:25

Why the F d A and the D have been really, standoffish and unhelpful, in

Jason: 00:28:29

terms of understanding how to think about cannabis in the United States.

Jason: 00:28:33

That is low in t h c.

Jason: 00:28:35

It's, it's been really confusing.

Jason: 00:28:37

and yeah, it's, it's a mess in the United States.

Raven: 00:28:40

To say the least.

Raven: 00:28:41

To say the least.

Raven: 00:28:42

And , to piggyback off you what you said, I mean, it's difficult to have

Raven: 00:28:48

plants that provide a multitude of benefits because of , the nature in

Raven: 00:28:53

unknowns or potential constituents in there that haven't been standardized yet.

Jason: 00:28:56

Right.

Raven: 00:28:57

but additionally, like in addition to the FDA approval process, also the

Raven: 00:29:01

gold standard of clinical trials don't really work well with medicinal plants.

Raven: 00:29:06

And that is a whole other hurdle in itself.

Jason: 00:29:08

Absolutely.

Jason: 00:29:09

Yeah.

Jason: 00:29:09

I mean, on multiple levels, you know, one, there's not a lot of money for

Jason: 00:29:15

because there are obstacles to, making our product that only you could sell.

Jason: 00:29:20

You know, you can get patents on, medicinal, some medicinal plants and

Jason: 00:29:26

products and the processes used to make those products, but it's very hard to.

Jason: 00:29:31

Enforce some of those patents, and it gets into a lot of gray areas

Jason: 00:29:35

that companies aren't just, aren't comfortable throwing money at.

Jason: 00:29:37

So there's not a lot of money for it in the first place.

Jason: 00:29:40

And then, yeah, when you start talking about clinical trials,

Jason: 00:29:49

And this gets into philosophy.

Jason: 00:29:51

lately more and more particularly physicians and clinical researchers

Jason: 00:29:58

issue and how we handle research in that, the way that a lot of clinical

Jason: 00:30:06

representing, you know, more or less an average of a segment of the population.

Jason: 00:30:14

because you have to exclude a lot of, Different people,

Jason: 00:30:18

based on all sorts of different qualifying conditions from studies.

Jason: 00:30:21

to do your first round of studies, they have to be in healthy volunteers.

Jason: 00:30:24

So, already your results are getting biased and presented in a way that

Jason: 00:30:31

is not actually representative of the average population.

Jason: 00:30:33

It's only representative of an average subset of the population.

Jason: 00:30:37

And when it comes to medicinal plants, what I've learned in working with a lot

Jason: 00:30:47

biologists and clinicians and things that really understand, better than

Jason: 00:30:54

The exercise of engaging in natural medicine is a highly personalized thing.

Jason: 00:30:58

It's, it gets into what's called in of one medicine, where you're

Jason: 00:31:05

and their unique presentation, their unique physiology, and trying to.

Jason: 00:31:11

Figure out a, a way to better engage with both food and, plant medicines and things

Jason: 00:31:16

like that to, give that body the best chance at being well that it, it can.

Jason: 00:31:22

And when you start getting into that kind of treatment, some of the

Jason: 00:31:30

and a lot of clinicians that work with medicinal plants a lot that I

Jason: 00:31:37

that don't show up in clinical data that, you know, the little that

Jason: 00:31:44

And so, it's easy for these clinical trials to provide a sort of smokescreen,

Jason: 00:31:52

could be used or even their potential harms and their potential benefits.

Jason: 00:31:56

And, so while, you know, double blind, Clinical trials are extremely important.

Jason: 00:32:02

They give us a high degree of predictive power if we can recreate

Jason: 00:32:09

That's why they're so highly valued.

Jason: 00:32:12

They have technically, they have the highest quality level of any

Jason: 00:32:19

solely because the predictive power, is as high as it can possibly be.

Jason: 00:32:23

But that predictive power only relates to the conditions of the study.

Jason: 00:32:27

they, it starts to fall apart when you try to expand into a lot of the complexities

Jason: 00:32:33

and nuances of the real world, outside of, of these controlled studies.

Jason: 00:32:37

Now, obviously there are exceptions and things when you get into clinical

Jason: 00:32:43

and you're seeing recoveries and things, that's a, a different story.

Jason: 00:32:46

But what I'm talking about is.

Jason: 00:32:47

With medicinal plant research, it often doesn't go beyond the

Jason: 00:32:51

first round of trials with healthy volunteers, if it gets anywhere.

Jason: 00:32:56

And so a lot of the data we have is from that.

Jason: 00:32:58

And so it's very confused.

Jason: 00:33:00

And, I think that there's a role for survey research in anecdotal

Jason: 00:33:07

reporting and case studies that a, that can fill some of those gaps.

Jason: 00:33:12

And right now there's like a sort of a, a battle between professionals in the,

Jason: 00:33:19

where there's, you know, people that are very against anecdotal reporting and case

Jason: 00:33:23

studies and are like, you know, that's the lowest quality research that exists.

Jason: 00:33:27

Yeah.

Jason: 00:33:27

Maybe they experienced something.

Jason: 00:33:29

We don't know why.

Jason: 00:33:30

It doesn't mean anything for clinical practice.

Jason: 00:33:32

you know, we're only looking at.

Jason: 00:33:34

These double-blind peer reviewed clinical research trials.

Jason: 00:33:37

And then on the other side you've got people that are like, no, these anecdotal

Jason: 00:33:42

need to listen and your clinical trials don't mean what you think they do.

Jason: 00:33:45

And you know, and the reality is somewhere in between.

Jason: 00:33:49

and so yeah, that's, that's kinda the state of things.

Jason: 00:33:53

We have a lack of funding and then the research that does get done, it's not

Raven: 00:34:01

Yeah, very good point.

Raven: 00:34:02

And I just wanna say, I think it takes your specific mind and your specific

Raven: 00:34:08

entering the world of plant medicine, science and entheogen and cannabis

Raven: 00:34:14

have these high level critiques and expose the fallacies of our current

Raven: 00:34:19

So I just want to commend you for that and being upfront and honest with it.

Raven: 00:34:22

Well, that's really nice.

Jason: 00:34:23

I appreciate that, that kind feedback.

Jason: 00:34:25

It's, you know, and I'll say a lot of my, my perspective just comes

Jason: 00:34:32

People that work in the space.

Jason: 00:34:34

So that's where a lot of my thoughts about it come from is, both my own

Jason: 00:34:39

experiences, but also just hearing so much about what's going on, around the world.

Jason: 00:34:44

But I, I appreciate that and it's, and it's personal too, you know, like

Jason: 00:34:49

I've gotten my own experiences with a lot of these things with cannabis.

Jason: 00:34:55

It's well known.

Jason: 00:34:55

I'm a medical cannabis patient.

Jason: 00:34:57

I've talked about my psychedelic use and stuff before.

Jason: 00:34:59

And, so there's also that side too that I can, I understand the perspective of the

Jason: 00:35:09

And, so that's another thing.

Jason: 00:35:11

I, I try to be sensitive when I, I try to be mindful when I'm

Jason: 00:35:17

I'm really sort of representing multiple, Sort of stakeholders

Jason: 00:35:23

simultaneously, like the patients and the producers and the, the researchers.

Jason: 00:35:27

You know, I'm, I'm sort of connected to it all and, it's my hope that in sharing

Jason: 00:35:34

to folks pushing for changes that will really bring about what people want.

Jason: 00:35:41

I think sometimes with activism folks, focus on, things that are not actually

Jason: 00:35:49

and so I hope by explaining, you know, how the stuff works and explaining the

Jason: 00:35:55

see in the real world, I hope that that helps people hone in on, what's

Jason: 00:36:02

time they spend advocating for those things, it's gonna be time well spent.

Jason: 00:36:06

and that relates to my many hours spent.

Jason: 00:36:09

As an activist, you know, I, I consider my education work activism now, but I

Jason: 00:36:14

was much more of a, you know, in the streets activist when I was younger.

Jason: 00:36:17

And, you know, I definitely still carry a lot of that with me too.

Jason: 00:36:20

And it's like, we gotta find better ways to affect the changes that we need to see.

Jason: 00:36:25

And some of that requires that we stop and really understand the system and

Jason: 00:36:28

how it works, so that, you know, we can really push on those pressure points.

Jason: 00:36:33

And, for instance, like with medicinal plants and the pharmaceutical issue,

Jason: 00:36:39

fixed insurance is the next problem because insurance is gonna be the thing

Jason: 00:36:44

And so it's like understanding that, it's like, okay, we can't just advocate that

Jason: 00:36:52

and accepted, but we also have to rethink how we handle, other things, market

Jason: 00:36:59

and if we're not, Trying to take the whole picture into account or we end up

Jason: 00:37:04

in a weird situation, which I'm a little nervous about right now with cannabis.

Jason: 00:37:07

I'm worried we're gonna end up in a de a rescheduling situation rather than a

Jason: 00:37:13

from a schedule one to like schedule two or three, which is not going to have the

Jason: 00:37:20

and may actually make things a lot worse than what people are anticipating,

Jason: 00:37:26

You know, it's just one example, but, it's important to

Jason: 00:37:31

Yeah, exactly.

Raven: 00:37:32

I think you're right.

Raven: 00:37:32

It is important to understand how these things work, and I think that's one

Raven: 00:37:35

lesson that we take from nature is the how everything is infinitely interconnected.

Raven: 00:37:39

Like there's no movement that doesn't connect to another living organism's life

Raven: 00:37:46

And I think that's the same for even the stuff that's a little bit less

Raven: 00:37:50

market dynamics, the way the different type of stock prices can change,

Raven: 00:37:55

All these things are kind of exist in like the.

Raven: 00:37:57

The holographic space, but they're still very real and interconnected to, and at

Raven: 00:38:02

the end of the day, it's all based on our relationship as humans with that plant.

Raven: 00:38:05

And I think that is actually kind of crazy when I think about it.

Jason: 00:38:09

It is, it really is.

Jason: 00:38:10

I mean, it's super bizarre when you zoom out and you look at how

Jason: 00:38:15

humans have, have sort of chosen to behave and structure ourselves.

Jason: 00:38:19

it's, it's really crazy.

Jason: 00:38:21

I often, and this is actually something that comes up when I teach, I encourage

Jason: 00:38:27

you were, you know, a being from another planet and another galaxy

Jason: 00:38:34

earth and you were studying it and you didn't know anything about Earth at

Jason: 00:38:39

all, you know, you know, what would you think about how humans have,

Raven: 00:38:43

that's how I navigate my world.

Raven: 00:38:44

The objective observer

Raven: 00:38:46

. Jason: Yes.

Raven: 00:38:46

Yes.

Raven: 00:38:46

The active observer.

Raven: 00:38:47

It's, It really changes things when you start to, integrate

Raven: 00:38:53

And, there, there's a song I wrote with a, a line that says, if, if I told

Raven: 00:38:57

you everything were games that we've made, would you feel inclined to play?

Raven: 00:39:01

And, you know, it's, that's something that I impress upon my daughter.

Raven: 00:39:05

Now, you know, she's only four, but these are things I am talking to her about.

Raven: 00:39:09

I'm like, that's one way you can do things.

Raven: 00:39:10

Is that the only way, you know?

Raven: 00:39:12

just trying to make her think about like, you don't have to

Raven: 00:39:17

Like you can get creative, think about better ways to do

Raven: 00:39:21

And you may be surprised how far you go.

Raven: 00:39:24

you know, and going back to how this conversation started, I never thought that

Raven: 00:39:29

and it's literally just been following that passion and not trying to get

Raven: 00:39:34

sucked into how you're supposed to do things and having some.

Raven: 00:39:41

Confidence and, and some trust and a little blind faith, honestly,

Raven: 00:39:47

and just keep following, you know, that passion and everything.

Raven: 00:39:51

we can see some big changes in how we live our lives.

Raven: 00:39:54

absolutely.

Raven: 00:39:54

And I think that's a big thing that, psychedelics help with, with a lot of

Raven: 00:40:00

their thought loops, out of the ruts that build in the brain and getting

Raven: 00:40:07

pulled out of your costume that everyone wears, you know, every day in society.

Raven: 00:40:12

And seeing things, more from a, a kind of objective perspective and

Raven: 00:40:17

realizing, holy shit, like this is kind of dumb that we do this.

Raven: 00:40:20

Like, why don't we do something different?

Raven: 00:40:21

you know, we, we need more of that for sure.

Raven: 00:40:24

Oh yeah, absolutely.

Raven: 00:40:25

with that said, I would love to hear your personal experience of

Raven: 00:40:30

your experience with psychedelics as well, if you don't mind sharing.

Jason: 00:40:32

Yeah, absolutely.

Jason: 00:40:33

I'm happy to also,

Raven: 00:40:34

also, Jason, I just wanna say your camera froze maybe like a half

Raven: 00:40:37

hour ago and it froze at this really like, matrix kind of green overview.

Raven: 00:40:42

It's kind of sick.

Raven: 00:40:43

I'm definitely gonna send it to you after our call.

Jason: 00:40:45

Awesome.

Jason: 00:40:45

Good.

Jason: 00:40:45

I'm glad you got it.

Jason: 00:40:48

So my cannabis and psychedelic journeys are intertwined, you know, like I

Jason: 00:40:56

before cannabis because of my dad and his mental health issues and everything.

Jason: 00:41:01

So I was very interested in getting experienced with them because I had

Jason: 00:41:07

already been reading so much and I'm trying to think how old I was.

Jason: 00:41:12

the first psychedelic that I ever tried was, morning Glory Seeds.

Jason: 00:41:16

Mm-hmm.

Jason: 00:41:16

Interesting.

Jason: 00:41:18

Primarily just cuz they were legal and you know, I was a like 14 year old kid and.

Jason: 00:41:23

Didn't wanna break the law, didn't want to go to jail.

Jason: 00:41:25

I was very scared of that kind of thing, but still understood enough that, you

Jason: 00:41:30

know, I was like, I want to see what these effects are and try to understand it.

Jason: 00:41:33

So I have a very vivid memory of the day that we decided to get a bunch

Jason: 00:41:40

glory seeds and grind those up and, mix those in smoothies and ate 'em.

Jason: 00:41:45

And that was my first psychedelic experience and it was pretty significant.

Jason: 00:41:48

looking back on it, we ate way too much, way, way too much.

Jason: 00:41:52

We were dumb, we were kids and, you know, and, so, and, and we made

Jason: 00:41:57

the really stupid decision to put Easy Rider on as the trip came on.

Jason: 00:42:02

So like I have this extremely vivid memory of, the morning glory seeds starting

Jason: 00:42:07

they have, l s A in them, which is a precursor to L S D and as that started

Jason: 00:42:14

on Easy Rider came on, which if anyone seen Easy Rider, there's like an oil

Jason: 00:42:20

like really repetitive crazy sound while people are like talking to themselves.

Jason: 00:42:24

It's very chaotic and disorienting.

Jason: 00:42:27

and so that was my first experience was like being, thrown into, the peak of

Jason: 00:42:33

but I was fascinated.

Jason: 00:42:34

and it was, I had a very, profound experience cuz I

Jason: 00:42:39

I didn't talk for a long time and just listened and was in the moment.

Jason: 00:42:43

And, you know, that was profound in the sense that it showed me that consciousness

Jason: 00:42:53

And so that made me want to explore a little more.

Jason: 00:42:56

So, And so after that, eventually, so I grew up in the deep south.

Jason: 00:43:01

Psychedelic mushrooms are around pretty much all the time because

Jason: 00:43:04

there are cow pastures everywhere and it's wet and humid all the time.

Jason: 00:43:08

So, getting psilocybin mushrooms was, very easy.

Jason: 00:43:12

And so that was the next thing that I tried.

Jason: 00:43:15

And, that was the psychedelic that clicked with me where I was like, this

Jason: 00:43:18

is, doing something very interesting that, and I was very intellectual about it.

Jason: 00:43:22

And remember, the idea of like, neurodivergence was not

Raven: 00:43:27

you're right we were called gifted.

Jason: 00:43:29

Yeah.

Jason: 00:43:29

And even in my twenties when I got diagnosed with like ADHD, bipolar,

Jason: 00:43:36

to figure out where I was on whatever spectrum, it still wasn't.

Jason: 00:43:41

Really, well understood.

Jason: 00:43:43

So, you know, looking back on it, I'm like, oh yeah, I was like, on

Jason: 00:43:48

it kind of makes sense now of like how overly intellectualized I was about

Jason: 00:43:54

I took careful notes, was like timestamping them.

Jason: 00:43:57

and I still have journals of all these.

Jason: 00:43:58

I have a, a big case of notebooks that I've kept through the years,

Jason: 00:44:02

of a lot of these things that sometimes I go back and read 'em.

Jason: 00:44:05

but that's, you know, philosophy, mushrooms.

Jason: 00:44:11

that's when I had my first real kind of what I would call like a breakthrough

Jason: 00:44:19

not really, experiencing the outside world anymore, just in the internal environment.

Jason: 00:44:24

And that blew my mind.

Jason: 00:44:26

And then I got into lucid dreaming a lot after that, to figure out

Jason: 00:44:31

Exogenous compounds.

Jason: 00:44:33

And that was a really fascinating period of time that lasted

Jason: 00:44:40

starting in high school and going through into college.

Jason: 00:44:44

And in that time I had some really wild experiences.

Jason: 00:44:48

when you get into lucid dreaming, it's kind of dangerous because when you get

Jason: 00:44:53

time in your dreams and it gets really disorienting when you wake up cuz you're

Jason: 00:44:58

like, wait a minute, I was spent like two weeks somewhere else and now I'm here.

Jason: 00:45:01

What's going on?

Jason: 00:45:02

And so eventually that was, and that's something I can talk more about.

Jason: 00:45:05

It was a really interesting period of time, but, I started to kind of get

Jason: 00:45:09

away from that some because it started to lead to quite a bit of depression.

Jason: 00:45:13

and then there was also a time around the same period of time I was skateboarding

Jason: 00:45:23

I ended up, falling on a metal rail and a wooden rail a few times and cracked

Jason: 00:45:29

my tailbone and, hit my spine in a few different places, on these metal rails.

Jason: 00:45:35

And that's when I started to develop these, kind of disabling

Jason: 00:45:43

And when I was in college, it all started to like really

Jason: 00:45:48

I was stuck on a couch.

Raven: 00:45:49

Oh, wow.

Jason: 00:45:50

And that is when I started to take cannabis seriously as

Jason: 00:45:54

a therapeutic, plant because up until that point I viewed it more.

Jason: 00:46:00

Just recreational.

Jason: 00:46:01

even though I had done that debate and I understood the therapeutic applications

Jason: 00:46:06

of cannabis, for me personally, I only viewed it as, recreational at that time.

Jason: 00:46:12

And then, once I started using cannabis regularly in my early twenties, I

Jason: 00:46:18

I was much more mobile, my pain went way down and I was able to function again.

Jason: 00:46:23

And so it was a pretty quick decision after that.

Jason: 00:46:27

And I was like, okay, I can't stop doing this because if

Jason: 00:46:32

and I would do some experiments, you know, back in those early days I would

Jason: 00:46:39

get really nervous about, you know, am I abusing it or, you know what?

Jason: 00:46:43

And I also still was carrying a lot of.

Jason: 00:46:47

leftover baggage from my childhood growing up as a Southern

Jason: 00:46:53

Yeah, of course.

Jason: 00:46:53

You know, it's like thinking about, is God watching me?

Jason: 00:46:55

Am I going to hell?

Jason: 00:46:55

All these things.

Jason: 00:46:56

so there were times I would take breaks from cannabis and

Jason: 00:47:01

I wouldn't be able to get off the couch.

Jason: 00:47:03

And my girlfriend who would later become my wife, she was like, no, this is dumb.

Jason: 00:47:07

Like, why are you doing this?

Jason: 00:47:08

Just keep using what works.

Jason: 00:47:10

And that was a big deal for me.

Jason: 00:47:12

I think I really needed that like, external validation of like, what

Jason: 00:47:15

you're doing is okay, and you're better for what you're doing.

Jason: 00:47:19

Keep doing it.

Jason: 00:47:20

Don't worry about what everyone else is saying or what the society we're

Jason: 00:47:26

And so that was the beginning of my, you know, really serious relationship

Jason: 00:47:34

And then as I got older and more in touch with my mental health, I realized

Jason: 00:47:41

growing up I knew I was different than a lot of people I have In one of those

Jason: 00:47:48

was a night that I vividly remember where I was really upset and just wrote pages

Jason: 00:47:53

and pages and pages of like, why does my brain not work like everyone else's?

Jason: 00:47:57

Why am I so different?

Jason: 00:47:58

Why can't I just be like everyone else?

Jason: 00:48:01

And, so there's a lot of anxiety and depression that comes with,

Jason: 00:48:06

you know, neurodivergence in whatever form it presents itself.

Jason: 00:48:10

And, cannabis helps a lot with that in the sense of it helps

Jason: 00:48:16

keep me from spiraling when I'm feeling alone or feeling different.

Jason: 00:48:21

it kind of keeps me from spiraling into a pit of depression around that.

Jason: 00:48:27

And it provides a consistent state of consciousness, which is very sometimes

Jason: 00:48:32

hard to explain for anyone that doesn't know what I mean when I say that.

Jason: 00:48:35

But for someone like me, Being able to use cannabis and enter a state of

Jason: 00:48:43

gonna be the same every time is a really big deal because my brain is always

Jason: 00:48:50

going in a lot of directions that is not always helpful to my own health.

Jason: 00:48:54

And so to be able to pull out of that, you know, if I'm going into a,

Jason: 00:49:01

whatever, being able to pull out of that and just go back to that state

Jason: 00:49:05

of consciousness I'm in when I use cannabis, has literally saved my life.

Jason: 00:49:09

and sort of going to the, the name of, of this show, both cannabis and

Jason: 00:49:16

that I'm still here today because, some of the, between the chronic pain and the

Jason: 00:49:25

my early twenties, I, that's when I started to have moments of suicidality

Jason: 00:49:31

And so, They have helped keep my perspective in the right place

Jason: 00:49:37

so that I don't sink into these depths that I've been in before.

Jason: 00:49:42

and there have been some really, really impactful moments, certain, experiences

Jason: 00:49:47

with mushrooms, with cannabis, even beyond plants and mushrooms.

Jason: 00:49:52

But with ketamine I've had a very, profound experience that pulled me out

Jason: 00:49:58

Just a single dose only had to do it once and it lasted a very long time.

Jason: 00:50:03

And, so that's one reason why I'm so passionate about some of this

Jason: 00:50:09

people cuz it's helped me both in my physical health, my mental health.

Jason: 00:50:13

It's kept me alive so that I can even be here to talk about this

Jason: 00:50:19

And and this is stuff that I've really never.

Jason: 00:50:22

I'm curious about cannabis and stuff.

Jason: 00:50:24

I don't really talk about it, unless someone specifically asks, but there's

Jason: 00:50:30

don't even use cannabis or psychedelics or anything because I've been told

Jason: 00:50:36

told I'm very diplomatic in how I present myself and that with my sort

Jason: 00:50:42

pants, you know, kind of style, I've straight up been told by people like,

Jason: 00:50:47

I never thought you did that.

Jason: 00:50:48

And I'm like, well, you should probably not judge people based on how they look.

Jason: 00:50:52

But also, you know, I just don't think to share my story very much or to talk

Jason: 00:50:59

me and it's something I'm trying to rectify, I think, cuz I do think that

Jason: 00:51:06

other people going through similar things and will hopefully, Give them,

Jason: 00:51:14

just relief or validation or something that will, that will help them I hope.

Jason: 00:51:20

Yeah, I, I think it will, a big one that I think about amongst your story, which,

Jason: 00:51:26

I, I think about how you, you mentioned that you kind of had to reassess.

Jason: 00:51:30

Oh, your camera came back on.

Jason: 00:51:31

There we go.

Jason: 00:51:31

Nice.

Jason: 00:51:31

There we go.

Jason: 00:51:32

we had to reassess how your relationship with cannabis, cuz it is that fine

Jason: 00:51:39

And in America we don't really get the chance to actually feel that we can't

Jason: 00:51:46

Assess that relationship for ourself cuz we have so much cultural programming

Jason: 00:51:52

society and all the stigma involved, all the, the programming involved, like you

Jason: 00:51:57

from a Baptist family and so, and the south, I could imagine that there is

Jason: 00:52:02

a whole lot of programming in there, like you said, is, is God watching me?

Jason: 00:52:05

Am I gonna go to hell right now?

Jason: 00:52:07

especially whenever we talk about, things like psychedelics and etheogens

Jason: 00:52:11

I think there's a lot of people that can relate to that, how they assess

Jason: 00:52:16

you said, a little bit of external validation, be like, well, keep working,

Jason: 00:52:20

You know, there's no harm right now, so keep doing what's working for you.

Jason: 00:52:23

I think that means a lot to a lot of people.

Jason: 00:52:25

Yeah.

Jason: 00:52:26

I, I hope so.

Jason: 00:52:26

And I think there's, like you said, we don't, our society doesn't

Jason: 00:52:33

with ourselves and, and explore and feel and make decisions based on how

Jason: 00:52:40

Our, our society we're in now is very, All, all of that comes externally.

Jason: 00:52:46

You're told what to do, what to think, and and a lot of people are still very

Jason: 00:52:53

could or should make decisions, for themselves when it comes to health and,

Jason: 00:53:00

And it, it's something that, I, I really wrestle with, just because

Jason: 00:53:05

understand mental health at all, unless you directly are affected by it.

Jason: 00:53:10

And, so I still have people that say things like, just get it together.

Jason: 00:53:16

Just, just, you know, you're gonna be fine, obviously.

Jason: 00:53:20

Just pull yourself up, you're gonna be great.

Jason: 00:53:22

Like, just things that they say that have really been culturally programmed.

Jason: 00:53:25

And I'm like, you need to like really stop and think about what

Jason: 00:53:29

you know, that's, if that were possible, obviously I would do that.

Jason: 00:53:33

so we have a lot of work to do and I think mindfulness is a big, key.

Jason: 00:53:36

I, you know, I'm sad that tick not Hanh passed away.

Jason: 00:53:39

yeah.

Jason: 00:53:40

But, he was a big influence on me.

Jason: 00:53:43

he actually has a, monastery and, outside of, Oxford, Mississippi, which is

Jason: 00:53:50

A lot of people don't know.

Jason: 00:53:51

but there's a, a Plum Village monastery there in Batesville.

Jason: 00:53:55

And, I always wanted to go see it.

Jason: 00:53:57

He, when I was there, he didn't come through and I was really disappointed, but

Jason: 00:54:03

from Hanh really, did a lot to teach me how to sit with myself and be mindful.

Jason: 00:54:09

And that translated into my relationship with.

Jason: 00:54:11

Medicinal plants because when I was, using cannabis or if I was using mushrooms or

Jason: 00:54:19

into that experience and try to, it's like, let's get in touch with the body.

Jason: 00:54:23

Let's get in touch with the mind, like, what are we feeling?

Jason: 00:54:26

Let's let these thoughts pass over us and observe them.

Jason: 00:54:28

And, and so that's, you know, I think another part to this whole picture

Jason: 00:54:35

If we can all aspire to be more mindful, a lot of these other things kind of come

Raven: 00:54:42

Yeah, I agree.

Raven: 00:54:43

I think that once you start taking mindfulness seriously, and once

Raven: 00:54:47

leaders and, acended masters or enlightened individuals, if you will,

Raven: 00:54:50

you just start to slough off all that stuff where you can weigh you down.

Raven: 00:54:55

and if you move more mindfully, if you take mindfulness practice

Raven: 00:55:00

your relationships, your relationship with plant medicine, your relationship

Raven: 00:55:02

with coffee in the morning, your relationship with your daughter, right?

Raven: 00:55:04

Yeah.

Raven: 00:55:04

your relationship with your phone.

Raven: 00:55:06

Like, you become more mindful of everything.

Raven: 00:55:07

And that's a huge step about how all of us can usher in the, you know, what

Jason: 00:55:14

Yeah.

Jason: 00:55:14

Yeah.

Jason: 00:55:15

, absolutely.

, Raven: 00:55:15

of course, wanna be mindful of your time, Jason, we've been talking for a

, Raven: 00:55:17

little bit already, but I would be remiss if I didn't ask about both your books.

, Raven: 00:55:21

Curious about cannabis and toadstool's treasures.

Jason: 00:55:23

Yeah.

Jason: 00:55:24

And we're, we're good on time.

Jason: 00:55:25

I'm willing to go as long as you can.

Jason: 00:55:27

so yeah, the books, Toadstool's Treasures is one that I get really excited about,

Jason: 00:55:31

though it's been my, it's been the hardest to break through with for several reasons.

Jason: 00:55:35

so Toadstool's Treasures is a children's book that I wrote for my daughter.

Jason: 00:55:40

Because even though I'm most well known for my work with cannabis,

Jason: 00:55:47

more of a mycologist than a botanist and have always been into ecology.

Jason: 00:55:52

for as like, pretty much since I was around 11 or so, when I first

Jason: 00:55:59

plants and things, I got a mushroom identification book before I

Jason: 00:56:04

And so it's always been fascinating to me.

Jason: 00:56:09

And so once, we, my wife and I were thinking about trying to have a child, I,

Jason: 00:56:20

to change and I was like, what are some things that I wish existed that I want her

Jason: 00:56:25

to, you know, have and interact with and stuff and, and influence how she thinks?

Jason: 00:56:30

And so I started to write the story.

Jason: 00:56:34

And Toadstool's Treasures is, basically a, story about two friends that, these

Jason: 00:56:43

together for the first time, which is always an exciting time for young kids,

Jason: 00:56:49

of the girls is kind of more from the suburbs, and then, her friend Phoebe

Jason: 00:56:55

lives in a rural area and so she's going from the suburbs to this rural, area.

Jason: 00:57:00

And so she feels really out of place and is very homesick.

Jason: 00:57:04

And, the family that she's staying with lets her know that they're

Jason: 00:57:10

making, a mushroom stew for dinner for which she's disgusted and mad.

Jason: 00:57:15

and you know, she's just feeling really awful, just missing

Jason: 00:57:21

And you know, she thinks mushrooms are these gross fungus, you know,

Jason: 00:57:26

and she takes her frustration out on a patch of, fairy mushrooms.

Jason: 00:57:31

And in doing so, this character brother Toad stool comes to visit and takes

Jason: 00:57:39

them down and takes them on a journey to explore what fungus is doing in our

Jason: 00:57:43

lives, both in the environment, in foods, medicines, all of that sort of thing.

Jason: 00:57:48

So it's kind of like a, magic school bus story in a way.

Jason: 00:57:51

That's the best thing I can relate it to is it definitely has a feel

Jason: 00:57:57

so these characters, they initially shrink down and go into the dirt and

Jason: 00:58:01

they discover, one character arby, the arbuscular mycorrhizal fungus.

Jason: 00:58:05

They learn about how she's working to find nutrients to share with

Jason: 00:58:13

nutrients in exchange and how she helps fight off nematodes and things.

Jason: 00:58:17

And then, they meet a, another series of mushrooms, these oyster

Jason: 00:58:25

And she, and they see that these mushrooms are like casting out nets

Jason: 00:58:28

and filtering pollutants out of the water as it's passing through.

Jason: 00:58:32

Then they meet, another mushroom that is one of my favorite mushrooms in existence.

Jason: 00:58:36

A lactarius indigo mushroom, which is a bright blue, funnel shaped mushroom

Jason: 00:58:45

And it's been used, in the past, both as a food and as a source of blue dye,

Jason: 00:58:49

which blue is a color that, for those that don't know, is hard to find in nature.

Jason: 00:58:54

and to make textiles and things back in the day that were blue,

Jason: 00:58:59

So, you know, they learn that.

Jason: 00:59:01

This mushroom is used to make blue t-shirts and, you

Jason: 00:59:05

And then, towards the end of it, they learned that if mushrooms didn't exist,

Jason: 00:59:13

because, you know, they sort of enter a world without mushrooms and the forest

Jason: 00:59:17

they're in starts to like overgrow with dead, you know, plant material and stuff.

Jason: 00:59:22

And the dirt's starting to, wash out because there's not really

Jason: 00:59:27

And they're seeing like their favorite flowers no longer exist.

Jason: 00:59:31

orchids can't exist, you know, all sorts of things like this.

Jason: 00:59:34

And so by the end of the story, the kids, develop a new appreciation for

Jason: 00:59:41

was homesick, she forgets, you know, that she was homesick and, happily,

Jason: 00:59:47

They learn how to do spore printing.

Jason: 00:59:49

And, then the next morning she's picked up by her parents and she happily,

Jason: 00:59:54

you know, talks about her adventure with, the mushrooms and everything.

Jason: 00:59:59

And, you know, so the goal, there's several goals with the book.

Jason: 01:00:02

One is get kids to appreciate mushrooms and reduce mycophobia.

Jason: 01:00:09

because a lot of people are scared of mushrooms.

Jason: 01:00:11

Cuz I think if you touch one, you're gonna die.

Jason: 01:00:14

And, the other thing is that the book does teach kind of best

Jason: 01:00:20

it teaches kids, you know, give the mushrooms a little tap to help release

Jason: 01:00:26

Make sure to cut it at the base.

Jason: 01:00:27

Don't just rip 'em out, you know, little things.

Jason: 01:00:29

That, you know, would be good to know, teaching them how Topo Print without,

Jason: 01:00:35

it in the book, but then it's something like, yeah, you can just go do this.

Jason: 01:00:37

and then I wrote lesson plans to go with the book, so on, at toso treasures.com.

Jason: 01:00:45

parents or teachers or whoever can go on there and they can get access

Jason: 01:00:50

that connect with things that happened in the book so that they can, and

Jason: 01:00:53

they're all aligned to next generation Science standards and Common Core.

Jason: 01:00:57

So it's like legit, lesson plans that any teacher or homeschooling family

Jason: 01:01:05

And then also made an audiobook version and a video book version.

Jason: 01:01:09

I had a really, some really nice folks help with narrations and all that sort

Jason: 01:01:15

problem that I didn't expect, and I've run into it multiple times now.

Jason: 01:01:21

And, so Molly, the character who is from the suburbs, her parents in the book

Jason: 01:01:28

are lesbians, and the other character in the book, her parents are biracial.

Jason: 01:01:36

I am in the deep south.

Jason: 01:01:37

So both of those things are a big problem apparently.

Jason: 01:01:41

And, so I've hit a lot of resistance to getting this book picked up or

Raven: 01:01:49

That's wild.

Raven: 01:01:50

I wouldn't expect those just representation to be the

Jason: 01:01:54

I wouldn't either.

Jason: 01:01:55

I also had a crazy experience just a few weeks ago.

Jason: 01:01:58

I posted about it on LinkedIn.

Jason: 01:02:00

there's another book, like an adult science fiction book that I'm working

Jason: 01:02:05

And I was talking to a, a publisher, not a very professional one, it turns out.

Jason: 01:02:10

but in pitching the book identity is something I'm always exploring.

Jason: 01:02:13

It's, it's a big.

Jason: 01:02:15

Thing to me.

Jason: 01:02:16

And so in this other book that I wrote, yes, identity issues come up in there too.

Jason: 01:02:20

And there's representation of all sorts.

Jason: 01:02:23

And I had a lady just go off on how I was, grooming children to

Jason: 01:02:29

it was really wild.

Jason: 01:02:30

It actually upset me quite a bit because I take for granted sometimes like,

Jason: 01:02:37

sometimes I forget how evil some people can be and that they're still out there.

Jason: 01:02:42

And yeah, this is an issue I've run into multiple times, unfortunately.

Jason: 01:02:45

So if anyone hearing this has any connections to the publishing world

Jason: 01:02:48

and you don't mind lgbtqia plus representation, come talk to me.

Jason: 01:02:52

Cause I'm still working through those issues.

Jason: 01:02:54

It's been quite a nightmare.

Jason: 01:02:56

and it's so stupid cuz it's like you're totally missing the point of everything

Raven: 01:03:01

Yeah, exactly.

Raven: 01:03:02

Completely missing the whole point

Jason: 01:03:04

yeah.

Jason: 01:03:04

Yeah.

Jason: 01:03:05

But that's, you know, so toadstool's treasures is, A book.

Jason: 01:03:08

I'm still trying to get kind of more broadly accepted in, circles of

Jason: 01:03:14

homeschooling families and teachers that are interested in science and mycology.

Jason: 01:03:18

and I hope that that representation isn't an issue.

Jason: 01:03:20

And if it is, I hope you have a deep look inside.

Jason: 01:03:23

And, the other book that you mentioned, curious About Cannabis, that is on

Jason: 01:03:28

the nonfiction side, that's a textbook and it's on its third edition now.

Jason: 01:03:33

And its development was cool because I started teaching about

Jason: 01:03:40

And, in giving these lectures in workshops, I didn't have any good

Jason: 01:03:45

textbooks that were suitable for kind of an introductory audience.

Jason: 01:03:49

They were all like pharmacy textbooks and stuff like that, or they were all about

Jason: 01:03:56

Yeah.

Jason: 01:03:57

So I started writing these essays that I would share with my students, and

Jason: 01:04:03

Then that turned into like a spiral bound notebook I would put together at Staples.

Jason: 01:04:09

And then that in 2018 turned into the first, published version of

Jason: 01:04:14

Curious About Cannabis through my own publishing company.

Jason: 01:04:18

And then, we've done updates to it every two years since.

Jason: 01:04:21

So we just did the third edition at the end of 2022 and just last year,

Jason: 01:04:28

So curious about cannabis is, you know, my goal with it is provide a broad survey

Jason: 01:04:36

cannabis science, both in how it grows, how it's extracted, how it's tested,

Jason: 01:04:43

And, I've been really excited to see that at least, five or six colleges

Jason: 01:04:49

out to me and said that, they're using the book or recommending the book.

Jason: 01:04:53

I've got.

Jason: 01:04:55

At least a couple of, schools that have developed whole classes

Jason: 01:05:00

And so that's really exciting because that's showing me that, you know, the

Jason: 01:05:06

the curious about cannabis platform, that it's starting to, you know,

Jason: 01:05:11

really have some bigger effects that I was hoping it would have.

Jason: 01:05:14

Cause I, I started teaching about cannabis before there was ever

Jason: 01:05:19

And, there might have been, you know, Oaksterdam existed, but other than

Jason: 01:05:24

and so things have changed a lot.

Jason: 01:05:26

And, I'm excited that curious about cannabis has been a part of that.

Jason: 01:05:31

And it's really developed from the book into the podcast, which started in 2019.

Jason: 01:05:36

And then now we have this whole learning platform that, you know, folks can

Jason: 01:05:43

five bucks a month, and they get the whole, all the access to everything.

Jason: 01:05:47

And they get access to courses that I've built, old lectures and videos

Jason: 01:05:51

from every event that we've ever done, every podcast we've ever done.

Jason: 01:05:56

and I get cool emails from people like PhD students that are doing research

Jason: 01:06:01

helped me figure out, you know, what I wanna research and how I want to impact,

Jason: 01:06:08

And, that's been super amazing.

Jason: 01:06:11

and I already have ideas for the fourth edition, that I will probably

Jason: 01:06:17

year and try to have that ready by the end of next year if I can.

Jason: 01:06:20

cuz everything's just changing so much and the technology's changing and I'm getting

Jason: 01:06:30

like, virtual reality, augmented reality, and just different forms of multimedia

Jason: 01:06:40

And.

Jason: 01:06:41

give people kind of unique ways to engage in educational content.

Jason: 01:06:45

So, yeah, the next edition I'm curious about cannabis

Jason: 01:06:48

This the third edition I integrated QR codes throughout the book

Jason: 01:06:54

different things that are in the curious about cannabis, ecosystem.

Jason: 01:06:58

You know, they can jump into like a virtual exhibit I've built in the

Jason: 01:07:01

metaverse or they can jump into a podcast episode or jump into a course.

Raven: 01:07:04

How cool.

Jason: 01:07:05

but the next edition I wanna kinda ratchet up a little more

Jason: 01:07:09

and make it even more interesting, assuming that I'm able to pull it off.

Jason: 01:07:14

And then I'm also, I just finished working on the alpha version of the

Jason: 01:07:20

which is an AI model that I've trained to at least know everything that's in

Jason: 01:07:27

as, About 50 different open source, research papers that, most of 'em are

Jason: 01:07:32

review papers, so they kind of cover quite a lot of content and that's been cool.

Jason: 01:07:37

We just rolled that out.

Jason: 01:07:38

So anyone who's a member on the Curious About Cannabis platform, they

Jason: 01:07:43

ask it questions and it's pretty darn good at giving nuanced, responses

Jason: 01:07:50

Cause chat g bt I was playing around with that and you know,

Jason: 01:07:55

And it's like, oh, strains are different types of cannabis

Jason: 01:07:59

and there's cannabis sativa and cannabis indica and cannabis root.

Jason: 01:08:02

I'm like, oh no.

Jason: 01:08:03

Okay, we're already wrong cuz we're talking about these different species.

Jason: 01:08:06

And then it was like sativa's uplifting and like, oh no, it's like actually

Jason: 01:08:12

I don't want people to be misled by.

Jason: 01:08:15

So that was the kind of driving force to do the virtual mentor.

Jason: 01:08:18

It's like, oh god, people are going to chat G P T now.

Jason: 01:08:21

To ask questions and write blog articles and stuff.

Jason: 01:08:24

let's see if we can take everything we've built and make an AI model that's

Jason: 01:08:28

trained on all of that stuff so that it can provide some better information.

Jason: 01:08:34

It's still not perfect.

Jason: 01:08:35

it's definitely not perfect.

Jason: 01:08:36

It's, it'll be an ongoing process, but it is a lot better than chat g p t.

Raven: 01:08:40

Wow.

Raven: 01:08:41

Do you have a, do you have a fun little name for the

Jason: 01:08:45

HA!

Jason: 01:08:45

I've thought about it.

Jason: 01:08:46

I haven't come up with one yet.

Jason: 01:08:47

I did, I did think about Buddy or Bud.

Jason: 01:08:50

and then I was like, is that too, too on the nose or, yeah, I don't know.

Jason: 01:08:54

But yeah, I am thinking about it.

Jason: 01:08:56

So anyone listening, if you wanna submit suggestions on what we should name,

Raven: 01:09:04

Well, this has been an awesome conversation, Jason.

Raven: 01:09:07

I feel like we could talk for honestly another hour.

Jason: 01:09:08

Likewise.

Jason: 01:09:09

Yeah.

Raven: 01:09:09

Just about all the little intricacies and nuances when it

Raven: 01:09:12

comes to plant medicine in the intersection of education and cannabis.

Raven: 01:09:15

Absolutely.

Raven: 01:09:16

I wanna thank you for doing the good work for plant medicine out

Raven: 01:09:19

there, getting the word out, getting quality thorough education out there.

Raven: 01:09:22

If I had a dollar for every time I had to correct someone about the

Jason: 01:09:27

Right?

Jason: 01:09:27

Yeah.

Raven: 01:09:29

but I guess my last final question is where can people find you online?

Raven: 01:09:32

I know you put a lot of good work out there, where can people check you out?

Jason: 01:09:36

Yeah, so, if you wanna just connect with me directly, my personal

Jason: 01:09:43

There are, I have one of the most basic names in the world, so if you Google

Jason: 01:09:51

And like, there's a famous author that's Jason Wilson.

Jason: 01:09:54

There's a famous journalist, that's Jason Wilson.

Jason: 01:09:56

There's a famous chef that's Jason Wilson.

Jason: 01:09:57

So, it gets really confusing.

Jason: 01:09:59

So I always add the MS at the end, not because I'm particularly

Jason: 01:10:04

boastful about my degree, but because that's the only way to.

Jason: 01:10:08

Differentiate myself from all the other Jason Wilsons out there.

Jason: 01:10:12

So Jason Wilson ms.com will give you a little bit of background

Jason: 01:10:18

Natural Learning Enterprises is natural edu.com.

Jason: 01:10:21

And you can see all of the learning initiatives that I've been working on and

Jason: 01:10:27

Curious about cannabis You can find at cacpodcast.com or

Jason: 01:10:33

We just did a website upgrade, and I'm really happy with it, so

Jason: 01:10:39

you don't even have to become a member to access a lot of content.

Jason: 01:10:42

I'm curious about cannabis as far as the podcasts and videos and stuff goes.

Jason: 01:10:46

So there's hundreds of hours of stuff people can dive into without ever

Jason: 01:10:51

But then if you want to dive deeper and go into courses and get into the extended

Jason: 01:10:57

And that's at cac podcast.com.

Jason: 01:10:59

And then toadstool's treasures is toadstool's treasures.com.

Jason: 01:11:04

And you can find toadstool's treasures and curious about cannabis on Amazon.

Jason: 01:11:09

You should be able to find it on Barnes and Noble, several other places.

Jason: 01:11:12

There's a handful of bookstores that stock 'em.

Jason: 01:11:14

If you happen to have a favorite bookstore, ask them

Jason: 01:11:19

that's generally how it gets done.

Jason: 01:11:21

So we're getting more and more all the time that are coming online.

Jason: 01:11:24

So, I appreciate any support to try to get these books, seen,

Jason: 01:11:29

I really think it's got a lot of potential both to, positively impact kids when it

Jason: 01:11:35

comes to science, education, philosophy, tolerance, so many different levels.

Jason: 01:11:39

I really want that book to be read by kids and, and to have an impact there.

Jason: 01:11:44

So, toadstool's, treasures.com, check that out and you can find

Jason: 01:11:49

all of me and all of the things I've talked about on social media.

Jason: 01:11:52

If you search for us on LinkedIn, Instagram and Facebook

Raven: 01:11:59

Awesome.

Raven: 01:12:00

Well, once again, thank you for coming on today, Jason.

Raven: 01:12:02

it's been a really insightful conversation and I'm excited to have you back one day.

Jason: 01:12:06

Yeah, definitely happy to come back anytime and I look forward to

Jason: 01:12:09

I'm sure they'll be great.

Raven: 01:12:24

Okay, so that is gonna be all we have for today, everybody.

Raven: 01:12:27

I'm your host, Raven, and I thank you very much for listening to this

Raven: 01:12:33

That was Jason Wilson, whose contributions to cannabis education could be found

Raven: 01:12:37

via his podcast, curious about cannabis at cacpodcast.com and natural edu.com.

Raven: 01:12:46

And his cannabis science textbook also entitled, curious About

Raven: 01:12:51

book, A Toad Stools Treasures are both available on Amazon, so I would

Raven: 01:12:58

As always, if you enjoyed this conversation, I encourage you

Raven: 01:13:01

to share it with someone else who you know would enjoy.

Raven: 01:13:04

I'd also be eternally grateful if you were to take it just a second and

Raven: 01:13:09

your favorite podcasting platform that helps us spread the love far and wide.

Raven: 01:13:16

Thank you again for listening, everybody.

Raven: 01:13:18

For questions, comments, and community connect with us over our, our official

Raven: 01:13:25

Until next time, everyone have a beautiful week.