27: Psychedelic Buddhism with Lama Mike Crowley - Plants Saved My Life

Episode 27

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Published on:

6th Oct 2023

27: Psychedelic Buddhism with Lama Mike Crowley

27: Psychedelic Buddhism with Lama Mike Crowley

Plants Saved My Life

This week, Raven is joined by Lama Mike Crowley, a renowned Tibetan Buddhist practitioner and author, delves into the hidden treasures of Tibetan Buddhism, the re-discovery of ancient terma, and the intriguing fusion of spirituality and psychedelics. Explore timeless wisdom and the mystical realms in this captivating conversation.

Born in Cardiff, Wales in 1948, Mike's spiritual journey led him to a profound encounter with Lama Chime in 1967. This meeting was sparked by his curiosity about a p'urba, and it quickly blossomed into a deep friendship. In 1970, Mike took refuge, marking the beginning of his dedicated path. Over the years, he immersed himself in extensive studies and meditation retreats, culminating in his ordination as a lama in 1988.

In 1986, Mike made a remarkable discovery—a terma initially found by Pema Lingpa in 1483, lost to the world for centuries until Mike's revelation.

Lama Chime entrusted Lama Mike with the responsibility of guiding his students in the United States in 1989. Mike is the visionary founder of Amrita Dzong, an American extension of his teacher's spiritual community. Additionally, he serves as a valued member of the advisory board of the national Psychedelic Sangha.

Lama Mike Crowley is a prolific author, renowned for works such as 'Secret Drugs of Buddhism' and 'Psychedelic Buddhism: A User's Guide to Traditions, Symbols, and Ceremonies.' His wisdom and teachings continue to illuminate the intersections of spirituality, psychedelics, and ancient traditions.

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Plants Saved My Life is a weekly podcast blending education, scientific research, compassion, and storytelling. Featuring real stories from patients who have overcome chronic conditions with the help of plant medicine and specialized medical practitioners, therapists, shamans, and other neotraditional healers exploring non-pharmacological means of medical intervention. Join us weekly for fascinating conversations with people whose lives were saved by plants. Let's demystify and destigmatize entheogens, naturopathy, plant-based medicines, holistic therapies, psychedelics, and functional nutrition. Join us as we pay homage to the plants and fungi we owe our health and happiness.



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Copyright 2023 Entheo Wellness - Plants Saved My life

Music - Psychedelic Es by Ostenvegr under Creative Commons License

Transcript
Raven:

Hey everyone, Raven here.

Raven:

And I am very excited to share another episode of Plant Saved My Life . First,

Raven:

I want to thank you all for listening.

Raven:

This platform has been an incredibly humbling and enlightening experience.

Raven:

As you all know, plant medicine is something that I care greatly about,

Raven:

and the show is freely available.

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I don't really work with any sponsors or anything, so I just

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am really grateful and I greatly appreciate all of you for joining me

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week after week with each episode.

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I'll keep working to make sure I give you guys insightful interviews,

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And I just wanted to say thank you.

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This week, we are joined by Lama Mike Crowley for a truly

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enlightening conversation.

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He is the founder of Amrita Dzong, an American extension of his Buddhist

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Teachers Group, and he is also a member of the advisory board of

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the National Psychedelic Sangha.

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Lama Mike is also the author of Secret Drugs of Buddhism, as well as

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Psychedelic Buddhism, a user's guide to traditions, symbolism, and ceremony.

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I'm very excited to have this conversation with him and for you

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guys to join us, so let's go ahead and welcome Llama Mike to the show.

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But first, a quick disclaimer, while I make every effort to broadcast correct

Raven:

information, I am still learning.

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I am committed to thorough fact checking, but I realize that plant medicine is

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a constantly evolving science and art.

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Additionally, the views and opinions expressed on this show do not

Raven:

represent the perspectives of any of the institutions I teach for or the

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organizations I collaborate with.

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However, this podcast does align with my broader mission to demystify and

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destigmatize plant medicine everywhere.

Raven:

These discussions are intended purely for educational and informative purposes.

Raven:

Always consult with a qualified healthcare professional before making any decisions

Raven:

related to your health, and no topics are meant to be taken as medical advice.

Raven:

Okay, there we go.

Raven:

Well thank you so much for being on the show today on Plant Saved

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My Life, Llama Mike Crowley.

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I would love for you to introduce yourself and how plant

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medicine falls into your story.

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Lama Mike Crowley: Well, I am I'm a Buddhist Lama.

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I first encountered my teacher in 1966.

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I was ordained as a Lama in 1988.

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But first as an Upasaka.

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In 1970 it took me 18 years to to become proficiently well, be Become sufficiently

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studied in Tibetan Buddhism to be accepted as a Lama by my teacher in 1988.

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And I've been actually learning how to do it ever since.

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Yeah, it's a lifelong practice, right?

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Right.

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Wow.

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That's amazing to consider that it would take 18 years to be

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ordained or recognized as a Lama.

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What led you on that path?

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Lama Mike Crowley: Well, it's a long story really.

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I was living in Uxbridge, on the outskirts of London.

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And I had a neighbor who went to jumble sales every Saturday.

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He would make lightning visits to three or more jumble sales.

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And he often came back with...

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incredible treasures that he'd found at these places.

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He gave my girlfriend a sable coat, for instance, with, made

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with the very best sable skins.

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The the lining was falling apart, but the skins were wonderful.

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Then one day he came to my my place and showed me a brass object he'd found.

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And he said, What do you think of this?

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I think it's Mexican.

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And I said, No that's Tibetan.

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I'm not sure what it's called, but it's a Tibetan implement.

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And he said, no I'm sure it's Mexican, some Aztec imitation Aztec tourist crap.

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And I said, no, actually, I have a photograph of one in a book.

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Hang on, I'll get it for you.

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Went upstairs, got the book, and he compared the two and said, Well, damn it.

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You're right.

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Well, you should have it then.

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And I was like appalled.

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I said, surely I can't afford this.

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And he said, no, it only cost me tuppence and it's yours.

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So I was then lumbered with this Tibetan ritual object, which is

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what it said in the caption to the picture in the book that I had.

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And when I next went to the Buddhist Society in London.

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I took the book with me.

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I borrowed it from Buddhist Society, and I I showed the object to the librarian.

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I said, is there anybody who can identify this for me?

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And she said, well, it just happens to be a Tibetan Lama

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who has just moved into London.

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And if you'd like, I'll give him a call.

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So she did, and arranged our meeting, which happened like half an hour

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later when I took it across London to see this guy who was living in

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a student hostel in Bloomsbury.

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And he identified it as a Dorje Borba.

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And this is a a three bladed object which looks like it's a, it's an object

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of self defense or attack if you like but is actually a representation of a of

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a tent peg, and it's used for subduing demons and all sorts of things, but

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he told me to carry it on my person.

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Which which I've done ever since.

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Now, not that same one, I actually have a a tiny one inside a Tibetan

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gao, which I wear around my neck.

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So, I, I then asked him if I could come back and speak to him.

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On the following Friday.

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I I worked Sundays to Thursday nights, and I had Fridays off every week.

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So every week on a Friday, I spent all day with this teacher, whose

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name was Lama Chimi Rinpoche.

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And this continued for seven and a half years that I would spend all

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Friday with him talking about Tibetan Buddhism and various other things.

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I mean, we went to the movies together.

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We we did various things together.

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But after three years or so, I was ordained as a layman, an upasaka.

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And after a further 18 years, I was ordained as a

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layman as a Lama, a lay Lama.

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Lay Lamas are distinct from the monastic Lamas in that we are actually capable

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of receiving higher teachings than them.

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We, whenever there are Meetings of llamas, monks, nuns, and what have you.

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We laymen get one more cushion than they do.

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We sit, like, an inch higher.

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They're thin cushions.

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So, It just so happened that at the same time, I was

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investigating psychedelic drugs.

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And eventually when I had an audience with the Lama Chiré said

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to me, people tell me that you do psychedelic drugs, is this true?

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And I said, yes, it is.

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And he said, one word, good.

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And then moved on to other subjects.

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So I don't know whether that influenced his decision to ordain me as a Lama, but

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it doesn't seem to have done any damage.

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Yeah, that's good, because that is something that is really

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difficult to reconcile the traditional Buddhist teachings of renunciation

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and the use of psychedelics.

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Trying to reconcile both of those seems to be a difficult task to some, so

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it's nice to know that you were able to incorporate them into your practice.

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And I myself, I'm not super familiar with the different hierarchies

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within the monastery as far as being a lay Lama to a layman to a Lama.

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I'm not really super familiar with all that.

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So that is very interesting to me, especially because it's very hard work.

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, 18 years.

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That's a very dedicated path to say the least.

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Lama Mike Crowley: I know that's only a portion of it, right?

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And that was the beginning of the path.

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Something I should point out is that it is common.

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For people when they take their first vows and formally become a Buddhist

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that they also take their optional vows that you can take, which are

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the Pancha Sila, the five vows.

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And these are not to kill, not to lie, not to, steal not to commit

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adultery and not to drink alcohol.

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Now, some teachers Particularly in Zen, Have interpreted this to mean Not to

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take any mind altering substance at all.

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My teacher kept to the the original vows not to drink alcohol.

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And and that means that he was quite au fait, if you will excuse the French

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expression, with me taking psychedelics.

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These were not alcohol.

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After all he was a good friend of Chojan Chongpo Rinpoche.

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They had grown up together.

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And Trungpa was well known for or known in some circles at any rate for taking

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LST with with the hippies he lived with.

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He lived in, originally, in in Notting Hill Gate, Notting Hill area in London.

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And In a squat with a bunch of hippies, and they would occasionally take LSD.

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He would do it with them, but then scold them for not doing it properly.

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And he would often tell Middle aged Buddhist women at the Buddhist Society in

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London that they should really try LSD.

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This was when it was still legal, of course, in the mid 1960s.

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And he would, at the same time, he would tell certain hippies that

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they should stop doing LSD because they weren't doing it right.

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I had a a remarkable experience on L S D made by Nick Sand

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known as orange Sunshine.

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And I wrote about this in in my book.

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Well, in both books, actually secret drugs of Buddhism and psychedelic

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Buddhism, which has just recently come out I had a vision of what

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is called Indra's net in which

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there are an infinite number of crystal spheres, or spheres which are of crystal

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clarity and absolutely spherical.

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Each one reflects every other every other sphere in the array.

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In fact, I, what I witnessed was that they were only the reflection of every

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other crystal in the array and was in Wrapped muted attention to this vision

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for about half an hour and it was some months later, might've been a few years

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later, that I read a book by Gama C.

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C.

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Chang called The Buddhist Philosophy of Totality.

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And in this book, there was a description of exactly what I had witnessed.

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And it was attributed to someone called Tu Shang, who had lived

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about 900 years previously.

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And so I was pretty sure that he hadn't taken LSD.

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And this.

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Was a tremendous help to me as it, it demonstrated that I was on the

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right track, if you like the LSD was a way of getting there as were

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meditation and various other techniques.

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Yeah, I imagine that is a really big validation whenever

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you are seeing things that were written about 900 years ago.

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So there's no way they were, there's very unlikely they were under the

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influence or under the impression of any type of psychedelic drug.

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But it is validation that something that I've seen in a psychedelic

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experience has been seen elsewhere just with the mind's eye.

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I think that's incredibly powerful.

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I really like that your life kind of took this course where an artifact

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literally fell into your lap.

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Absolutely.

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You know, 60 years later, you still got a rendition of that.

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That's, that is incredible.

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Lama Mike Crowley: Well, it's, it was yes, it was something which moved me.

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It's supposed to be

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a, a living object which enters your life and leaves your life.

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At its own will.

Raven:

Now, to pivot a little bit to talk about your books, I'm familiar

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with, you know, how the Tibetan Book of the Dead has been repurposed for

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the psychedelic experience by Timothy Leary, Ralph Metzner, and Ram Dass.

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And I'm also very intrigued by your books because I find that psychedelics

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provide a way to view intrinsically.

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inside ourselves to be able to really look introspectively but Buddhism helps provide

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the maps for what that really looks like.

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So I really like that your books help us explore that internal world

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that psychedelics help open up with the help of Buddhism, or it helps

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practicing Buddhists kind of incorporate spiritual practices with psychedelics.

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So I'd love to hear your thoughts on the coalescence of these two worlds and what

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kind of inspired you to write these books.

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Lama Mike Crowley: Well, the first book was the outcome of questions

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from friends of mine, and it basically took me 20 years to write.

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To accumulate all the the...

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The evidence and so on.

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I wanted to make something which people couldn't brush off and say, Oh,

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that's a, that, that guy's just crazy.

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I wanted something substantial.

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And there are I think something like 315 footnotes, which are all references to

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other books that are footnotes which are at the bottom of the page, which are just.

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Notes on my own writing, but these are references to other books, which you can

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go and look up if you have any questions about the authenticity of my writing.

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Now about the Tibetan Book of the Dead, which is known

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as the Bodo Tudul in Tibetan.

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It was only called the Tibetan Book of the Dead to imitate the Egyptian

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Book of the Dead, which was immensely popular at the time it was published.

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And it was it was the publisher's Decision to name it that.

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Well, I have discussed this with Ralph Metzner.

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And he said that the that the book was all very well, but it wasn't

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written in the right order that the, order in which people experienced

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the psychedelic wasn't really the same as the the book of the dead.

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And I had to inform him that it's not written in the right order.

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Most tantric books are not written in the order in which they are to be read.

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The Only when you get the initiation into the book and into the the 110

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deities included in the Tibetan Book of the Dead that you are usually

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instructed in how to read it.

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This is typical, not just of the the Tibetan Book of the Dead, but of any

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tantric a deity, if you get an initiation into, say, Chakrasamvara, you're told

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how to read the Chakrasamvara Tantra.

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And I have several texts which I use, which were compiled in what

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is basically the wrong order.

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You have to have the initiation to be told which page to read, after which

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And so, it was very enlightening talking to Ralph and getting his opinion.

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And what he was saying was that it was what the Book of the Dead

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Described was if you were initiated, you see that it's actually in the

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correct order, the same order.

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And Ralph would have been a perfect person to take that initiation because

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he would have realized that it was actually quite correct all along.

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So what was the question?

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I've forgotten the question.

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Oh, no, you're fine.

Raven:

That's very interesting.

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That's very interesting, especially, you know, coming from the author of the book.

Raven:

That's very interesting.

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I guess my main question that was after having this conversation,

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after exploring Buddhism as well as psychedelics on your own path, what

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inspired you to write these two books for

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Lama Mike Crowley: yourself?

Raven:

Oh, well, the first one was the result of various questions that I was asked

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by non Buddhists about tantric deities and Are these horrific figures supposed

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to be real, or are they just imaginary?

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And they are just imaginary.

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They, only the Hindus imagine their gods are real.

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Buddhists think that they're just stuff to meditate on.

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And then having written that book After 20 years I eventually got it published

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and then people started asking me about how they put this stuff into practice.

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It's all very well to know theoretically, but how do you practice this stuff?

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So, hence my second book, Psychedelic Buddhism, which does actually tell you

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how to put the stuff into practice.

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The first half of the book is about drugs, psychedelic drugs, how to deal with them.

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For instance it gives you the the, a method of testing the drugs with the

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various chemical testing kits, which are available and says that after

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you've assured yourself that they're pure quality you then have to follow

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the guidelines of taking them at the right place, the right time in the right

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company and with the right intentions.

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And that is the rest of the book.

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And it, it has lots of things which relate to taking.

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psychedelic drugs, including there's a section of art, two of my pieces in

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there several pieces from other people.

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And there the book ends with a few poems including one of my own,

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which is a very profound haiku on the subject of psychedelics.

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And it goes like this.

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The I observed haiku form precisely.

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It's 5, 7, 5 syllables, three lines.

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And the reader is instructed to get themselves into a a

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meditative state before they read the poem and it goes like this.

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Underlying all is a subtle vibration.

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I think it's the fridge.

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I really like that.

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That was written while on psychedelics.

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And while listening to the hum of the fridge.

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Yeah, I absolutely love that because there is

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a hum to the world, right?

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There is an underlying vibration frequency to the world.

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But because, you know, we live in America and everything, it's our fridge.

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I love that.

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I absolutely love that.

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I would love to hear a personal story of yours of when psychedelics

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started to really intersect with your Buddhist practice.

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Lama Mike Crowley: Well, that I think was when I had the the vision.

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I had been taking psychedelics, initially Morning Glory seeds and

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subsequently LSD and psilocybin.

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Psilocybe mushrooms are prolific in Wales.

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We are probably the the source of most mushroom trips in Europe.

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We have a ridiculous number of of mushrooms in Wales.

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My, my brother once picked 2, 000 mushrooms.

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In in an hour, but had to stop because it was raining too hard,

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which is a peculiarly Welsh problem that it tends to rain a lot.

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My my, my own practice began with Zen.

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And I was fully convinced that I was going to pursue a a Zen path until

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the proba landed in my lap and I went in search of a Tibetan Lama.

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Wow, so it's

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almost like I'm convinced.

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I'm absolutely convinced that in stories like these that us as human beings,

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we don't get too much of a choice.

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You know, the wheels of karma are always moving.

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Lama Mike Crowley: Yes, that's absolutely correct.

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Yeah, as in my experience at any rate.

Raven:

Yeah, exactly.

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And another thing I wanted to touch on is I absolutely love that your website

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offers your treats, but it also has a number of teachings that are easily

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accessible and available to anyone.

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Everything from like proper meditation posture to what you call

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the four positive attitudes and even how to cultivate universal love.

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So I would love to hear more on your thoughts on how the four positive

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attitudes can be enhanced or deepened with the use of psychedelics.

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Lama Mike Crowley: Oh, right.

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Well, you do them as normal, but just do them on psychedelics.

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You, you're asked to visualize a an ideal landscape, if you like.

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In the landscape, there are trees which are hung with

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strings of jewels in the trees.

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There are birds and in the sky.

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There are also birds lying around the place.

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There are all kinds of animals and whether they're mammals or lizards invertebrates.

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They're all around some in the you also visualize a a huge lake in which

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there are creatures of of the water, whether it's of freshwater or the sea.

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Tibetans belong to a landlocked country, and they've generally never seen the

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sea, so they don't realize there are actually Different fish and different

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animals that are adapted to saltwater that can't actually live in freshwater.

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But there's a this visualization kind of conveniently ignores that fact.

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And And you also and imagine yourself standing there in your best.

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Sunday best clothes, say your best suit and tie, and next to you standing

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your family, all similarly dressed, all facing the same way, and around them,

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there are more distant members of your family, and close friends, and so on

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beyond that, there are People that you've you recognize, but don't actually know.

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They're people you might nod to on the way to the bus stop or see in the supermarket,

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but don't know them personally.

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Beyond them, there are people that you do know, but who you know don't like you.

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But they're still there.

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They are included in your visualization and you you begin by thinking of

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your family and thinking how you would like them to be enlightened.

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You would like them to have have pleasant experiences.

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And have an enlightened attitude to all experiences,

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everything which occurs to them.

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Now in this, you're you're actually expressing your love for your

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family and your fellow humans.

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And you extend it outwards.

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To all the animals, all the fish in the sea, all the birds in the

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air, and even to alien beings which may exist in other planets, and and

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invisible beings which we can't see, and just in case they exist too.

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So, you want them all to be happy.

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And that's the essence of love.

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Love is wanting another being to be happy.

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And we now extend this feeling of of wanting love for people

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to every being in the universe.

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We want them all to be happy.

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And so we want them all to experience love.

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The next stage is that you do the same thing for compassion.

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That is to say, you don't want the beings to suffer.

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And you start off by saying, I don't want to suffer myself.

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And so I imagine that my family would also not want to suffer.

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And just like my family, the other people I know or have had acquaintance with,

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they would also not want to suffer.

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also don't want to suffer and so do my enemies, the people who wish me harm.

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And you extend this outwards to include all the animals, all the birds, all

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the fish, all the alien beings, until you're quite sure that no one anywhere

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of any species wants to suffer.

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And this is the the wish of universal compassion.

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Now the fourth stage is that there's something called universe, sorry

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sympathetic joy, Upasheka in Sanskrit.

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And you can think of it like this.

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When a parent sees their child Playing with other children and they're

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all giggling and playing happily.

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You wish that all children and all beings could be like that.

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This is the feeling of sympathetic joy.

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You want them to experience happiness.

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You want them to experience joy.

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And so you start off with yourself.

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You wish yourself to experience sympathetic joy, you want others,

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your close family, your, the,

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the distant members of your neighborhood, say, and then the people you don't,

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who don't like you, and so on.

Raven:

You extend it outwards to all the animals, all the birds, all the fish,

Raven:

all the aliens, until you've reached the Universal state of sympathetic joy.

Raven:

And then the final one is equanimity.

Raven:

That When you see your children playing, You don't think, I like

Raven:

that one, but not that one there.

Raven:

You like them all.

Raven:

All of them.

Raven:

Without intervening, Without choosing.

Raven:

And you wish them, you wish all beings could experience this sympathetic joy of

Raven:

equanimity between all beings, that all beings are of the same The same category

Raven:

in this regard, and you want them all to feel this this feeling of equalness

Raven:

of equanimity between all beings.

Raven:

And when you finish that, you generally stop for a few

Raven:

moments in quiet meditation.

Raven:

So that's a brief very brief synopsis of the four Brahma Viharas,

Raven:

the four abodes of divine love.

Raven:

Wow.

Raven:

Yeah.

Raven:

Thank you for going in the detail about those four abodes of divine

Raven:

love or those four positive attitudes.

Raven:

And like you said, with a practice like that, where you start with yourself.

Raven:

Start to encompass your immediate family, your community, your network,

Raven:

and then also the animals, the plants, the everything we know and love, and

Raven:

all the things we don't know and love.

Raven:

I can understand why psychedelics...

Raven:

Are able to facilitate and catalyze those powerful changes internally, because

Raven:

that is one of the biggest lessons they teach us are those of equanimity,

Raven:

those of sympathetic joy, those of compassion and those of love and kindness.

Raven:

So I can definitely understand how they do go hand in hand with one another.

Raven:

And.

Raven:

Lately, I've seen that this intersection of psychedelics and

Raven:

spirituality has really gained a lot of traction, especially in

Raven:

this past year, past couple years.

Raven:

So I would love to know what you think or what you see as the potential

Raven:

benefits and also the potential risks of combining these two paths are.

Raven:

Lama Mike Crowley: The risks are in getting the practice wrong.

Raven:

And not including everyone in your practice.

Raven:

And in fact there are said to be four minor problems and four

Raven:

major problems with the practice.

Raven:

Which not caused by the practice, but which can affect the practice.

Raven:

And I actually go into this in my book psychedelic Buddhism.

Raven:

First of all, you might find that you can't generate love or compassion or

Raven:

whatever for a certain group of people.

Raven:

And this is something that you have to work on to and to make sure that you're.

Raven:

Your wishes for love, compassion, sympathetic, joy, and equanimity are

Raven:

extended to all sentient beings, not just some of them, and when you've got

Raven:

this sorted out you basically fixed all the problems which may occur with

Raven:

it then you can practice it fully.

Raven:

If there are any hiccups in this this path, you have to sort them

Raven:

out when when you're practicing it in the the practice manuals, which

Raven:

come with the every deity it will say, now do the four Brahma Viharas.

Raven:

And then it's alternate something else.

Raven:

It's assuming that you've actually incorporated the four Brahma Viharas into

Raven:

your daily practice and your life's work.

Raven:

And that if you have any problems, you've already sorted them out, but it is very

Raven:

brief and only rarely are you given the extensive view of first yourself, then

Raven:

your family, then your friends, then your acquaintances, then people you don't know,

Raven:

then people who actually Wish you harm and then the other beings, other mammals,

Raven:

other birds fish and and so on throughout the entire universe of of beings.

Raven:

But you, you definitely have to look for and sort out

Raven:

those who you don't wish harm.

Raven:

Joined equanimity to the, these that if you find that there is a section

Raven:

of society or birds or even of animals that you you don't love you should

Raven:

really examine yourself and find out it.

Raven:

Why not?

Raven:

What's different about these people, or those animals, or those insects,

Raven:

or what have you, that are unworthy of your love and compassion?

Raven:

Yeah, well said.

Raven:

I think that whenever we're faced with those sort of internal confrontations

Raven:

of us not liking a certain person, or liking a certain bug, or liking a

Raven:

certain community we do have to, if we want to be able to have these, abodes

Raven:

of a divine love, we have to be able to make sure that everything is included.

Raven:

So, it does require a little bit of self examination.

Raven:

I can understand where the benefits of psychedelics kind of facilitate

Raven:

that inner self introspection.

Raven:

Lama Mike Crowley: Absolutely.

Raven:

And it's also to be noted that it starts with yourself.

Raven:

You must love yourself.

Raven:

Before you can think of loving other people and you must have

Raven:

compassion for yourself and so on.

Raven:

That a major flaw in this that I've found in the West is

Raven:

that people try to apply it.

Raven:

Universally without starting with themselves, they may have a very low

Raven:

opinion of themselves, but they're willing to apply it to other people.

Raven:

Well, that's an initial mistake that you have to cure very early on.

Raven:

And and say, no, you that I myself am worthy of love if I'm not worthy

Raven:

of love or have not been in the past.

Raven:

That is something which I should definitely fix.

Raven:

And of course, you can't fix what you've done in the past.

Raven:

You can only, forgive yourself for not behaving correctly in the past.

Raven:

And that's something which is also essential in this

Raven:

path, which is forgiveness.

Raven:

Yeah, absolutely.

Raven:

Really well said.

Raven:

So it sounds like there's definitely a lot of potential benefits of being

Raven:

able to combine these two worlds.

Raven:

Like you said, it really starts with yourself, though, and loving yourself

Raven:

before you can even think externally.

Raven:

One risk that I always think of combining the spirit, the spiritual world, the

Raven:

spiritual practices with psychedelics is, I'm kind of a little bit scared that we

Raven:

might be creating cult leaders all over the United States, just unintentionally

Raven:

with the advent of social media following and TikTok, and then, Psychedelics gaining

Raven:

traction with the new age spiritual movement and a lot of people lacking in a

Raven:

certain level of community and identity.

Raven:

I worry a lot that there could be cult leaders popping up all over the

Raven:

country that we don't know about yet.

Raven:

Lama Mike Crowley: Well, I do address this in psychedelic Buddhism and say

Raven:

that very often cult leaders have taken a psychedelic and discovered that

Raven:

they are the center of the universe and Unfortunately, tell others that

Raven:

I am the center of the universe that they don't have the knows to know that

Raven:

everybody else is the center of the universe too, which is the real message

Raven:

that if you take a psychedelic and find that you are absolutely special, it's

Raven:

It's a flaw to think that you are the only person that's absolutely special.

Raven:

Everyone else is too.

Raven:

And the correct response was, would be to say, you should also

Raven:

try these psychedelics and find out how special you are too.

Raven:

It's not really something that which Is made to elevate certain members of the

Raven:

population over certain other members of the population psychedelics are wonderful

Raven:

to discover your own special features that you make you so, innately you, and

Raven:

this is always something which is a great revelation when you find it out, but

Raven:

it's not one that you should impress upon others and say, look how special I am.

Raven:

You should externalize it and tell them you can find out how special

Raven:

and precious your mind is too.

Raven:

And that's all I have to say on the subject.

Raven:

I know there are far too many ego bound people who've taken psychedelics,

Raven:

I can name some famous teachers who have taught only that they

Raven:

should be worshipped and and not that you are also worthy of worship

Raven:

yourself, which is the real teaching.

Raven:

Yeah, exactly.

Raven:

That is the real teaching, and I think that those who have used this sort

Raven:

of spiritual movement or any sort of spiritual path or even psychedelics to

Raven:

exploit others are missing that entirely.

Raven:

And to mimic your point is that whenever people start to look deeper

Raven:

inside themselves, or they start to question the systems that be a

Raven:

little bit harder, and those systems, like the ones used by exploitive

Raven:

spiritual cults, tend to fall apart.

Raven:

So I can see what you're saying there is that if they're able to see that them,

Raven:

they, that they themselves have this divine divinity inside themselves that

Raven:

deserves being worshipped, then they have no reason being involved in a cult.

Raven:

So I definitely understand that.

Raven:

Another question I had is, you are currently a member of the advisory

Raven:

board of the National Psychedelic Sangha, and I would love to know,

Raven:

what role do you see psychedelics playing in the future of Buddhism?

Raven:

Lama Mike Crowley: Well, I personally teach that, People

Raven:

should first learn meditation.

Raven:

I didn't.

Raven:

I took psychedelics first, but I think as a general rule, it's

Raven:

good to learn meditation first.

Raven:

So, you would spend the first year or so in practicing shamatha

Raven:

and vipassana meditation.

Raven:

These, this is tranquility meditation and insight meditation.

Raven:

The two forms which are taught in Buddhism.

Raven:

Of course, there are hundreds and hundreds of different applications which which

Raven:

fall under these two headings, and whether they're the shamatha or the pasuna.

Raven:

And when they practice these for, say, a year, then they are usually Ready

Raven:

for the bodhisattva path to become

Raven:

attuned to the the needs of others to have have said, yes, these are

Raven:

my needs and I know and recognize my own needs, but now I think I should

Raven:

concentrate on the needs of others.

Raven:

And this is the bodhisattva path in which you, take a back seat.

Raven:

If you offer around a plate of sandwiches, you give them to everybody else first.

Raven:

You take the smallest piece of cake.

Raven:

You you don't insert yourself into conversations where other people might

Raven:

have something interesting to say.

Raven:

You you listen rather than speaking.

Raven:

And for this, I would recommend the judicial use of substances like MDMA.

Raven:

And you would generally only need one or two experiences of it.

Raven:

As it tends to diminish in its effects as you take it more often.

Raven:

When you become fully Convinced of the The usefulness of this

Raven:

attitude of putting others first.

Raven:

And you're Fully practicing this path.

Raven:

Then you're ready for Psychedelics and for the tantric path.

Raven:

And this takes usually about two years before you're ready to embark on the

Raven:

tantric path of taking psychedelics.

Raven:

Not constantly, not over frequently, but just occasionally.

Raven:

And.

Raven:

It's usually best to To have a period after psychedelic

Raven:

session of of contemplation and

Raven:

And really studying what that psychedelic taught you.

Raven:

And before you take the next session, the next psychedelic.

Raven:

We now have.

Raven:

Hundreds, literally hundreds of psychedelics thanks to the work of

Raven:

Sasha Shogun, an old friend of mine who invented something like 400 psychedelics

Raven:

his work is now being continued by a few.

Raven:

chemists who have a lab in Berkeley who are now working on Sasha's

Raven:

suggestions that he wrote down.

Raven:

He wrote down a book of something like 220 odd compounds he'd like to

Raven:

make but didn't have time to do so.

Raven:

And he's left that book of preparations of chemicals to A few chemists,

Raven:

I won't mention their names, but they are doing incredible work

Raven:

in in creating new psychedelics.

Raven:

And so I don't think there's going to be any end to this.

Raven:

There will be more and more psychedelics invented as we, we continue.

Raven:

Oh yeah, absolutely.

Raven:

And I, sometimes I wonder about what natural ones may we find that we have

Raven:

not been, that we're not privy to yet.

Raven:

Like we know about mushrooms and some of the other more naturally occurring

Raven:

ones, Bufo, Ayahuasca, et cetera.

Raven:

But I'm curious, maybe there's sea creatures or sea plants that might have

Raven:

very potent psychedelic effects that we haven't even touched the surface of yet,

Raven:

Lama Mike Crowley: That's very interesting that you should mention that we found

Raven:

that there are, in fact, some very simple sea creatures, which contain

Raven:

dimethyltryptamine, for instance.

Raven:

And, yes, I hope that we can continue to find more.

Raven:

There are there are fish which contain psychedelics that if you

Raven:

eat the brains of a Hawaiian fish called salpa you will trip out.

Raven:

I have not been able to to sample this.

Raven:

A sample was sent to Sasha, but unfortunately it wasn't

Raven:

refrigerated and it was.

Raven:

Just a stinking mess by the time he received it.

Raven:

Wow, that's hilarious.

Raven:

Yeah, it was consigned to the dustbin as soon as it was

Raven:

opened and stunk up the place.

Raven:

Wow, well this has been a truly enlightening conversation.

Raven:

I do have one more question for you.

Raven:

So, psychedelics are often times associated with like mystical

Raven:

or transcendental experiences.

Raven:

How do these experiences align, or maybe diverge, with the

Raven:

traditional Buddhist understanding of awakening and enlightenment?

Raven:

Lama Mike Crowley: Well, they it depends on how they're treated.

Raven:

They're very often identical.

Raven:

Well, like the the vision of Indra's net.

Raven:

I found it to be identical to what it was written about what was considered to be

Raven:

a meditation experience 900 years ago.

Raven:

But then again, it would be possible to have this same experience,

Raven:

but misunderstand it and mistreat it and take it out of context.

Raven:

I'm not sure right now exactly how this might be achieved, but I'm sure

Raven:

that some people would would like, oh, yes, I've thought of something.

Raven:

If someone says, this was my experience, and you lesser mortals don't get

Raven:

to have experiences like this.

Raven:

Only I, the the spiritually enlightened person can have these.

Raven:

Yes, well, that is, Not in the spirit of of, for instance, psychedelic

Raven:

Buddhism what I've chosen to call psychedelic Buddhism in my latest book.

Raven:

Yeah, very well said.

Raven:

Well, with that said, I definitely want to be mindful of your time, Lama Mike.

Raven:

I thank you so much for being able to talk today.

Raven:

So what are you working on currently and where can listeners find your work?

Raven:

Lama Mike Crowley: Well, I have written apart from the the two books on Buddhism,

Raven:

I've also written an autobiography, which I am looking for a publisher for.

Raven:

I am and I'm currently writing an encyclopedia of psychedelics.

Raven:

For my friend Dave at the the psychedelic church it's it's very promising and I went

Raven:

to the, to Anne Shogan's memorial service.

Raven:

Last Sunday, and got tremendous inspiration for more writing.

Raven:

The I want to do, like, a very short biography on people like Albert

Raven:

Hoffman, Sasha Shulgin and Alan Watts and and people like this but

Raven:

also I had felt a a distinct lack of input from the feminine side.

Raven:

I had no idea about how to handle.

Raven:

The few women that there were in the movement and last Sunday led

Raven:

me to believe there are a lot more women but they just stay quiet.

Raven:

They just keep things to themselves.

Raven:

Yeah, we unfortunately know how history is written.

Raven:

Right.

Raven:

Exactly.

Raven:

That would be a tremendous undertaking.

Raven:

I would absolutely love to be reading that book.

Raven:

I'm going to be ordering your Psychedelic Buddhism book as soon as we get off

Raven:

the call today, and I'll be looking forward to a, like a biography, sort

Raven:

of encyclopedia of psychedelists.

Raven:

I mean, a lot of them have very interesting stories to tell, and

Raven:

I myself am very intrigued by how they fall into these, especially

Raven:

some who, like Aldous Huxley or Carl Jung, like, way before their time,

Raven:

Lama Mike Crowley: you know?

Raven:

Yes, unfortunately, Carl Jung didn't get to try any psychedelics.

Raven:

I would

Raven:

still put him in the realm just because he was

Raven:

such an introspective thinker.

Raven:

Lama Mike Crowley: Right.

Raven:

, Raven: overall, I'm really grateful that we were able to have you on

Raven:

the podcast today, Llama Mike.

Raven:

Thank you so much for speaking with me.

Raven:

Do you have any final parting pieces of advice or wisdom for any of the listeners?

Raven:

Lama Mike Crowley: I think not.

Raven:

I think we've said enough.

Raven:

Agreed.

Raven:

Well, thank you so much for coming on today.

Raven:

Lama Mike Crowley: Well, thank you for having me.

Raven:

It's been very entertaining to be able to talk to you.

Raven:

Okay, everyone, that is all we have for today, and I hope you found this

Raven:

conversation half as insightful as I did.

Raven:

I'm incredibly honored to have Llama Mike as a guest.

Raven:

And you can find Llama Mike at amritadzong.

Raven:

com.

Raven:

A M R I T A D Z O N G.

Raven:

com.

Raven:

I'm your host, Raven, and I thank you very much for tuning in to this

Raven:

week's episode of Plant Saved My Life.

Raven:

If you enjoyed this conversation, I encourage you to share it with someone

Raven:

else who you know would enjoy it.

Raven:

I'd also be eternally grateful and forever indebted to your will if you were to just

Raven:

take a second and give the show a 5 star rating on your favorite podcast platform.

Raven:

That helps us spread the love far and wide into the cosmos.

Raven:

Thank you again for listening.

Raven:

For questions, comments, and community, connect with us over on our official

Raven:

Instagram at plantssavedmylife.

Raven:

pod.

Raven:

Until next time everyone, have a beautiful week.

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About the Podcast

Plants Saved My Life
Uncover the healing potential of plant medicine with the "Plants Saved My Life" podcast. Join us weekly for real stories from patients who have overcome chronic conditions with the help of plant-based treatments and insights from specialized medical practitioners, therapists, shamans, and other experts in non-pharmacological forms of healing.

Learn about the latest advancements in patient-focused, holistic medicine and the potential of plant medicine in healing various disorders. Discover the benefits of entheogens, naturopathy, psychedelics, and functional nutrition.

Get a glimpse into the regulatory landscape of plant medicine in America and the end of the War on Drugs. Hear about the therapeutic benefits of psychedelic mushrooms, ayahuasca, iboga, medical marijuana/cannabis, kratom, and other non-traditional methods of healing.

Join host Raven Ariola, a scientific advisor, consultant, and educator in the medical cannabis space and founder of Entheo Wellness, for inspiring conversations and an exploration of the plants and fungi we owe our health and happiness to. "Plants Saved My Life" - demystifying and destigmatizing alternative forms of healing
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Raven Ariola

Passionate about plants. Raven is a medical cannabis scientist, consultant, and educator based in Pittsburgh, PA. Through his experience in the plant medicine industry, Raven has learned that real patient stories can often get lost in the static. A dedicated lifelong learner, he aims to bridge educational gaps and inspire compassion while providing these voices a platform.